I follow the Old Testament and I hate the vast majority of humanity. Amos 5:15 says to hate evil, and the vast majority of humanity is evil, so I hate them. By my understanding, I am following God's will. Christians clearly disagree with this. Christians believe that they are supposed to love everyone. But I can find no support for this view in the New Testament.
A common argument is Matthew 5:43-44. In 43 "love your neighbor" is supported by the Old Testament (Leviticus 19:18) but "hate your enemy" is not. Then in 44 Jesus says to love your enemies. But which enemies? Jesus does not say to love ALL your enemies. Clearly if your enemy is your neighbor then you are required to love him because he is your neighbor. But what if you enemy is not your neighbor? This question isn't answered here. Exodus 23:4-5 talks about one's obligations to one's enemies. But in the Old Testament context this is clearly about enemies who are neighbors. This is clear because the Old Testament is mostly about moral obligations to members of one's community, not outsiders. Did Jesus change this? Without Jesus saying that he did, I have to assume that he didn't.
And this brings me to the question of who is my neighbor which is discussed in Luke 10:29-37. Jesus answers the question in Luke 10:37. Did Jesus say that everyone is the man's neighbor? Absolutely not, Jesus said the opposite. Jesus gave the examples of 3 people and then said that only 1 out of the 3 is the man's neighbor. The examples that Jesus gave are very significant. Jesus rejects the priest who represents shared theology. Then Jesus reject the Levite who represents ancestry (racism). Finally Jesus approves of the Samaritan because he helps the man. So Jesus's conclusion is that a real community is a group of people who help each other, and that members of this community are neighbors. Other people are not neighbors, so you have no obligation so such people, just as the Old Testament says.
A good example of Jesus acting on these principles is Matthew 15:21-28. Here Jesus clearly doesn't act with love toward the Canaanite woman until 27 where she calls Israelites "masters" which shows that she accepts the Israelites and their religion. Only then does Jesus help her. This is consistent with my understanding of Luke 10:29-37 and also consistent with the Old Testament story of Ruth.
Finally there is Matthew 23 which is hardly an expression of love for the Pharisees. In the HCSB translation of Matthew 23:33, Jesus says of the Pharisees "Snakes! Brood of vipers! How can you escape being condemned to hell?". When was the last time a Mennonite spoke of a group of evil people in this way? And if they haven't, why do the Mennonites refuse to follow Jesus's example here?
I look forward to a Christian explanation of these things.
Why do Christians love everyone?
Re: Why do Christians love everyone?
While I think these are good questions and would take quite some time thinking about how to rationally explain them, I will reference 1 verse at least about the hate.
I'm sure you've heard the love the person, hate the sin, some take this to extremes on both sides.
I'll think about the other questions and see if I can give them a reasonable response in the next few days.
I would say the garment mentioned is figurative to the sin the sinner is bound in or struggling in and the fire is referencing the fire of hell to come.Jude 22-23And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
I'm sure you've heard the love the person, hate the sin, some take this to extremes on both sides.
I'll think about the other questions and see if I can give them a reasonable response in the next few days.
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Re: Why do Christians love everyone?
English is a very poor language to use for translating different biblical concepts of "love" for which there are actually 7 separate words and concepts in the ancient Greek.
That is actually the case for a lot of English words. For example, we say food is "hot" to describe the separate concepts of temperature and spiciness. By contrast, in Spanish they use the separate words "caliente" to represent temperature and "picante" to represent spiciness. Picante is actually from the verb "picar" which means to sting. So in Spanish, spicy foods sting, they don't burn. It is much more accurate and descriptive.
I expect something is similarly lost in the translation when we are talking about the concept of love.
That is actually the case for a lot of English words. For example, we say food is "hot" to describe the separate concepts of temperature and spiciness. By contrast, in Spanish they use the separate words "caliente" to represent temperature and "picante" to represent spiciness. Picante is actually from the verb "picar" which means to sting. So in Spanish, spicy foods sting, they don't burn. It is much more accurate and descriptive.
I expect something is similarly lost in the translation when we are talking about the concept of love.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Re: Why do Christians love everyone?
Franklin:
I follow the Old Testament and I hate the vast majority of humanity.
Amos 5:15 says to hate evil, and the vast majority of humanity is evil, so I hate them.
By my understanding, I am following God's will.
Christians clearly disagree with this.
Christians believe that they are supposed to love everyone.
But I can find no support for this view in the New Testament. ..
The present highly marketable platitude, “love is love,” is a flat-out lie. i grieve for every t-shirt wearing empty-headed promoter.
So much of scriptures is bastardized for lazy and self-serving popular opinion.
By that same token, “hate is hate,” would likewise merit study.
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Re: Why do Christians love everyone?
Franklin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:10 pm I follow the Old Testament and I hate the vast majority of humanity. Amos 5:15 says to hate evil, and the vast majority of humanity is evil, so I hate them. By my understanding, I am following God's will. Christians clearly disagree with this. Christians believe that they are supposed to love everyone. But I can find no support for this view in the New Testament.
Here are a few thoughts off the top of my head -
Luke 6:32-36 - “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
A common argument is Matthew 5:43-44. In 43 "love your neighbor" is supported by the Old Testament (Leviticus 19:18) but "hate your enemy" is not. Then in 44 Jesus says to love your enemies. But which enemies? Jesus does not say to love ALL your enemies. Clearly if your enemy is your neighbor then you are required to love him because he is your neighbor. But what if you enemy is not your neighbor? This question isn't answered here. Exodus 23:4-5 talks about one's obligations to one's enemies. But in the Old Testament context this is clearly about enemies who are neighbors. This is clear because the Old Testament is mostly about moral obligations to members of one's community, not outsiders. Did Jesus change this? Without Jesus saying that he did, I have to assume that he didn't.
I view my enemy is not anyone I think of as an enemy but rather they think of me as an enemy. My neighbour is whoever is within my range to show love towards them. From my end of things, I don't have enemies. Jesus last words on the cross was for the Father to forgive them that were crucifying Him as they didn't know what they were doing. These were people who viewed Him as an enemy and were outside the community of believers, yet He did not hate them but rather showed love toward them. He is our example as Christians.
And this brings me to the question of who is my neighbor which is discussed in Luke 10:29-37. Jesus answers the question in Luke 10:37. Did Jesus say that everyone is the man's neighbor? Absolutely not, Jesus said the opposite. Jesus gave the examples of 3 people and then said that only 1 out of the 3 is the man's neighbor. The examples that Jesus gave are very significant. Jesus rejects the priest who represents shared theology. Then Jesus reject the Levite who represents ancestry (racism). Finally Jesus approves of the Samaritan because he helps the man. So Jesus's conclusion is that a real community is a group of people who help each other, and that members of this community are neighbors. Other people are not neighbors, so you have no obligation so such people, just as the Old Testament says.
I believe when Jesus said the good Samaritan was the one who was the neighbour He meant that whoever is within our range of being helped, that one is our neighbour. The Samaritan helped a man that the scripture does not say was a Samaritan also. So, the answer to the question is that a neighbour is one who acts in a neighbourly, loving way towards anyone.
A good example of Jesus acting on these principles is Matthew 15:21-28. Here Jesus clearly doesn't act with love toward the Canaanite woman until 27 where she calls Israelites "masters" which shows that she accepts the Israelites and their religion. Only then does Jesus help her. This is consistent with my understanding of Luke 10:29-37 and also consistent with the Old Testament story of Ruth.
Jesus ministry was as He stated in Matthew 15:24. However, He was willing to even go beyond His ministry to minister outside the group He was sent to minister to. He was not ignoring her but His love for her was so great, He honored her request.
Finally there is Matthew 23 which is hardly an expression of love for the Pharisees. In the HCSB translation of Matthew 23:33, Jesus says of the Pharisees "Snakes! Brood of vipers! How can you escape being condemned to hell?". When was the last time a Mennonite spoke of a group of evil people in this way? And if they haven't, why do the Mennonites refuse to follow Jesus's example here?
If you view this as Jesus casting stones at the Pharisees by words, Jesus was without sin and He was in a position to cast a stone whereas we are not. I believe we can point to what the scripture says is sin, yet love those who sin as God first loved us as sinners. There are other things Mennonites and other Christians do not do in following Jesus. We don't walk on water, turn water into wine, raise dead people, etc but that does not disqualify us as Christ followers.
I look forward to a Christian explanation of these things.
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Re: Why do Christians love everyone?
Of course, Christians don't actually "love everyone". (If one looks at the behaviour of supposedly Christian people on MennoNet, for example, one doesn't necessarily see a lot of loving behaviour; one might be excused for coming to the conclusion that the various people here all hate each other.)
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Re: Why do Christians love everyone?
I appreciate the responses but I remain unconvinced.
For contrast, consider the Islamic, Jewish, and Old Testament view on this issue. Islam says that one has an obligation not to harm non-Muslims unless they threaten you, but no further obligation. Judaism says that Jews have no moral obligations toward non-Jews at all. My understanding of the Old Testament is that one has an obligation not to harm people from cultures that are not overwhelmingly evil. I consider the Christian and Jewish positions to be unreasonable (opposite) extremes while the Islamic and Old Testament positions seem reasonable to me. If I thought that the Christian position was supported by the New Testament then at least I would accept it for Christians. I hope to move to the Mennonite area in north Mexico in a few months and then I will be able to speak directly to Mennonites there about this issue.
Of course, but even thinking that there is some obligation in this direction has practical implications that I consider harmful. Non-violence is one example. More generally if people feel an obligation toward cockroaches, then there will be more cockroaches and this isn't a good thing. This is how I view Christian support for most of humanity.
For contrast, consider the Islamic, Jewish, and Old Testament view on this issue. Islam says that one has an obligation not to harm non-Muslims unless they threaten you, but no further obligation. Judaism says that Jews have no moral obligations toward non-Jews at all. My understanding of the Old Testament is that one has an obligation not to harm people from cultures that are not overwhelmingly evil. I consider the Christian and Jewish positions to be unreasonable (opposite) extremes while the Islamic and Old Testament positions seem reasonable to me. If I thought that the Christian position was supported by the New Testament then at least I would accept it for Christians. I hope to move to the Mennonite area in north Mexico in a few months and then I will be able to speak directly to Mennonites there about this issue.
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Re: Why do Christians love everyone?
I could agree with this, except that the goal of non-violent love is not coexistence, it is transformation. If Christian love toward cockroaches could set them on a path to becoming (for example) chickens, there would be fewer cockroaches and this would be a good thing. The point of loving enemies is that they may not remain enemies but become friends, and by the grace of God, even brothers.Franklin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:32 pm I appreciate the responses but I remain unconvinced.
Of course, but even thinking that there is some obligation in this direction has practical implications that I consider harmful. Non-violence is one example. More generally if people feel an obligation toward cockroaches, then there will be more cockroaches and this isn't a good thing. This is how I view Christian support for most of humanity.
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Re: Why do Christians love everyone?
John 3:16 tells us how God so loves the world ( not just some but all) and Romans 5:5 says that love has been poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. So, although Christians don't act in a loving way toward others, it is not because we are not able to love everybody. The song 'Give me that old time religion' we used to sing and the verse 'Makes me love everybody' is most often the testimony of new converts and should be a common characteristic of those who have been transformed into a new creature in Christ Jesus.
Just exactly how God, who is 'willing that none should perish but all should come to repentance' works things in a fair and just way, I don't know but I believe He will.
I believe loving everybody has to do with walking in the Spirit as it is not something possible in our flesh. It is a moment by moment relationship with God, empowered by the Spirit, to be Christ like.
Just exactly how God, who is 'willing that none should perish but all should come to repentance' works things in a fair and just way, I don't know but I believe He will.
I believe loving everybody has to do with walking in the Spirit as it is not something possible in our flesh. It is a moment by moment relationship with God, empowered by the Spirit, to be Christ like.
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