The epistemology thread

[Sudsy]

If I remember correctly, Leonard Ravenhill once said he believes that only about 5% of professing Christians are actually born again. That would mean that 95% of Christians are not guided by the Holy Spirit.

And how would he have known? Because they "didn't do it right" according to his strict standards?

Jesus set the bar pretty high. He refers to his followers as a little flock.

Jesus also said John 10 :16 that He had sheep in other folds. Jesus came firstly to the Jews and most did not receive Him. Those that did were a 'little flock'. But His salvation reaches out to us Gentiles to bring us also into the fold that Revelation describes as a number no man can count.

I have heard this 'little flock' phrase before in a way that implies that we shouldn't be concerned that much about growing the Kingdom through evangelism because the end result will be few that are saved. That salvation is so difficult and the road so narrow that very few will be saved. I prefer to think of verses that say His way is easy and His burden is light. And being willing that none should perish but all should come to repentance. And all things are possible with God. Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Just saying that all of these scriptures need consideration so we don't make salvation something too hard for most to be given and also too easy that all will be saved. I was raised under more of a fear view than one of assurance of salvation. Seems the more conservative a church gets the more it majors on a fear base and the more liberal on a one time, sinners prayer base.

[Wayne in Maine]

And how would he have known? Because they "didn't do it right" according to his strict standards?

Jesus set the bar pretty high. He refers to his followers as a little flock.

Jesus also said John 10 :16 that He had sheep in other folds. Jesus came firstly to the Jews and most did not receive Him. Those that did were a 'little flock'. But His salvation reaches out to us Gentiles to bring us also into the fold that Revelation describes as a number no man can count.

I have heard this 'little flock' phrase before in a way that implies that we shouldn't be concerned that much about growing the Kingdom through evangelism because the end result will be few that are saved. That salvation is so difficult and the road so narrow that very few will be saved. I prefer to think of verses that say His way is easy and His burden is light. And being willing that none should perish but all should come to repentance. And all things are possible with God. Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Just saying that all of these scriptures need consideration so we don't make salvation something too hard for most to be given and also too easy that all will be saved. I was raised under more of a fear view than one of assurance of salvation. Seems the more conservative a church gets the more it majors on a fear base and the more liberal on a one time, sinners prayer base.

Sudsy, you use the term "salvation" so casually and frequently. I'm not sure you are using it as Jesus used it. Jesus calls us to follow Him and to obey Him, not merely to "believe" in Him so that we will get to heaven after we die. Many people profess to "believe in Jesus for their salvation" but they accept an artificial, synthetic gospel that is much more attractive to the masses than the good news of the kingdom of God for which some will forsake everything to obtain.

But this is a bunny trail that deserves its own thread.

[Sudsy]

OK, I major in bunny trails. It's my MO.

[Josh]

Jesus set the bar pretty high. He refers to his followers as a little flock.

Jesus also said John 10 :16 that He had sheep in other folds. Jesus came firstly to the Jews and most did not receive Him. Those that did were a 'little flock'. But His salvation reaches out to us Gentiles to bring us also into the fold that Revelation describes as a number no man can count.

I have heard this 'little flock' phrase before in a way that implies that we shouldn't be concerned that much about growing the Kingdom through evangelism because the end result will be few that are saved. That salvation is so difficult and the road so narrow that very few will be saved. I prefer to think of verses that say His way is easy and His burden is light. And being willing that none should perish but all should come to repentance. And all things are possible with God. Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Just saying that all of these scriptures need consideration so we don't make salvation something too hard for most to be given and also too easy that all will be saved. I was raised under more of a fear view than one of assurance of salvation. Seems the more conservative a church gets the more it majors on a fear base and the more liberal on a one time, sinners prayer base.

Sudsy, you use the term "salvation" so casually and frequently. I'm not sure you are using it as Jesus used it. Jesus calls us to follow Him and to obey Him, not merely to "believe" in Him so that we will get to heaven after we die. Many people profess to "believe in Jesus for their salvation" but they accept an artificial, synthetic gospel that is much more attractive to the masses than the good news of the kingdom of God for which some will forsake everything to obtain.

But this is a bunny trail that deserves its own thread.

Epistemology is about knowing, knowing what you don’t know, and realising you don’t know what you don’t know.

In a rather roundabout sense, it does tie in to the ideals of “knowing you are saved”, which seems to be a mainstay of evangelical theology. I would argue that mainstream evangelical theology has a shaky epistemological base; it basically claims to be true because it claims to be true. One is then supposed to just “believe” in its claims, and then one “knows” they are saved because, well, know they believe in this thing they are supposed to believe.

[Bootstrap]

Epistemology is about knowing, knowing what you don’t know, and realising you don’t know what you don’t know.

In a rather roundabout sense, it does tie in to the ideals of “knowing you are saved”, which seems to be a mainstay of evangelical theology. I would argue that mainstream evangelical theology has a shaky epistemological base; it basically claims to be true because it claims to be true. One is then supposed to just “believe” in its claims, and then one “knows” they are saved because, well, know they believe in this thing they are supposed to believe.

I agree.

And there are different kinds of knowing. I know John. I know how to play the flute. I know that the shirt I am wearing is dark green. I know that Jesus rose from the dead. The field of epistemology takes time to examine various kinds of knowing.

[Valerie]

And how would he have known? Because they "didn't do it right" according to his strict standards?

Jesus set the bar pretty high. He refers to his followers as a little flock.

Jesus also said John 10 :16 that He had sheep in other folds. Jesus came firstly to the Jews and most did not receive Him. Those that did were a 'little flock'. But His salvation reaches out to us Gentiles to bring us also into the fold that Revelation describes as a number no man can count.

I have heard this 'little flock' phrase before in a way that implies that we shouldn't be concerned that much about growing the Kingdom through evangelism because the end result will be few that are saved. That salvation is so difficult and the road so narrow that very few will be saved. I prefer to think of verses that say His way is easy and His burden is light. And being willing that none should perish but all should come to repentance. And all things are possible with God. Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Just saying that all of these scriptures need consideration so we don't make salvation something too hard for most to be given and also too easy that all will be saved. I was raised under more of a fear view than one of assurance of salvation. Seems the more conservative a church gets the more it majors on a fear base and the more liberal on a one time, sinners prayer base.

I'm not sure how high Jesus raised the bar but I do know he said this in Luke 18:9-14:

9 also he spoke this parable to some who trusted themselves that they were righteous and despised others: "two men went up to the temple to pray, one
a Phariseee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself "God I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week I give titjhes of all that I possess." And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast saying "God be merciful to me a sinner". "I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Pharisees raised the bar here, bit despised others, but Jesus justified the humble sinner, we have to be careful. It's easy to realize when you read through the New testament that all the churches were filled with imperfect people.

[ohio jones]

Epistemology is about knowing, knowing what you don’t know, and realising you don’t know what you don’t know.

This brings to mind a school district we were working with several years ago. At least once in each meeting the superintendent or the treasurer (and usually both) would say "we don't know what we don't know." They wanted us to tell them what questions to ask, and then to answer those questions. Eventually my boss got tired of that and told our team "I wish those guys would show a little more interest in learning what they don't know."

There's a sense in which knowledge is like a circle. As it expands it covers more area, but also has more interface with the unknown outside it. In that paradigm (as in real life) a know-it-all actually knows very little.

[MaxPC]

Wayne, et al, you may find this useful in the parsing of this topic of epistemology. As always YMMV: nevertheless it may provide some food for your own thoughts.
Faith and Reason: The reasonableness of faith in God

There's a sense in which knowledge is like a circle. As it expands it covers more area, but also has more interface with the unknown outside it. In that paradigm (as in real life) a know-it-all actually knows very little.

Quite true in my experiences.
Proverbs 13:10

By insolence comes nothing but strife,
but with those who take advice is wisdom.

A quote attributed to Aristotle: “The more you know, the more you know you don't know.”

[steve-in-kville]

There's a sense in which knowledge is like a circle. As it expands it covers more area, but also has more interface with the unknown outside it. In that paradigm (as in real life) a know-it-all actually knows very little.

Ain't that the truth

I work with a few people that know everything about everybody... but rarely do they have it right

Leads to some entertaining lunchroom conversations, for sure!

[Dan Z]

Knowledge is in good part a result of the sources we trust.

Epistemologically, those who are the most successful in learning are those who have developed the greatest discernment in deciding who they will trust for knowledge.

Conversely, those who are the least successful in synthesizing knowledge are those who lack clear discernment when it comes to sources of knowing.

Discernment is mostly a learned behavior and is one of the key roles of any educational program. The Epistemological crisis society is In right now is, in good part, a failure of education to keep up with the information revolution. Post-modern relativism has exacerbated the crisis.

Illiberal tyrants and autocrats are always interested in limiting discernment and controlling knowledge.