The epistemology thread

[Valerie]

Seriously, though... lately I've been harkening back to various huge decisions in my Christian walk. Marriage, job changes, church changes and the like. There were times that I really wanted something really, really bad, and went to lengths to justify it by my emotions, which I confused with God's will for me. Yeah, it worked out okay (most of the time) but was I really where God wanted me?

There have been other times that random circumstances got dropped in my lap: sometimes great, happy things. Many times, not so great and happy things. And it would become extremely clear, with time, that this is exactly where God wanted me and He had a defined reason for it. I would be quite unsure of myself and yet random (some not so random) people in my life encouraging me to pursue a cause or calling.

God works in mysterious ways, for sure

I agree that we often do not hear God's will plainly for ourselves. I'm a big believer in communities of discernment and in guided strategic discernment over time. We often don't hear God's will plainly for quite a while, we may need to wander in the desert for 40 years so that God can prepare us and make us ready for his will.

But back to epistemology. How often is discerning God's will primarily about figuring out which claims are true? I think there are situations where it is - a ministry often needs to determine whether someone has committed sexual abuse or is being falsely accused or whether someone is committing financial fraud or was just set up in order to decide whether someone should be serving in a particular capacity. For vaccines, I think we really do need to know whether a vaccine promotes abortion or will result in many deaths, those kinds of facts would affect my choices. But more often than not, God's discernment for my life is more about what he is doing in me and the people he connects me to. It's not closely related to epistemology in the classical sense.

Because a lot of lying goes on in political world & medical, i tend to listen to facts shared by Christian microbiologists, doctors, & nurses who are attempting to expose & inform.

But in relation to this thread, one of my anabaptist friends on Facebook said in the beginning of this whole pandemic that she felt God did not want her wearing a mask. She lives in a Holmes county ohio, and drives for the Amish she once was amish. She felt she had to obey God rather than man is what she shared so for her making the decision about masks was not about any stated facts out there but obeying the Lord whom she felt was conveying to her spirit not to wear a mask. It has worked out very well for her as she's never worn one throughout this pandemic and never got sick.
. Anyway, many don't trust "supposed" facts but when we have to determine what "we" must do based on information, since we are listening to many voices, we need to pray for God to guide our decisions & choices.

[Soloist]

But in relation to this thread, one of my anabaptist friends on Facebook said in the beginning of this whole pandemic that she felt God did not want her wearing a mask. She lives in a Holmes county ohio, and drives for the Amish she once was amish. She felt she had to obey God rather than man is what she shared so for her making the decision about masks was not about any stated facts out there but obeying the Lord whom she felt was conveying to her spirit not to wear a mask. It has worked out very well for her as she's never worn one throughout this pandemic and never got sick

Does this Anabaptist friend also still headcover?

the Spirit of God does not contradict itself.

Also, obedience to God doesn't mean we are free from disease nor cost of following Him.

[Valerie]

But in relation to this thread, one of my anabaptist friends on Facebook said in the beginning of this whole pandemic that she felt God did not want her wearing a mask. She lives in a Holmes county ohio, and drives for the Amish she once was amish. She felt she had to obey God rather than man is what she shared so for her making the decision about masks was not about any stated facts out there but obeying the Lord whom she felt was conveying to her spirit not to wear a mask. It has worked out very well for her as she's never worn one throughout this pandemic and never got sick

Does this Anabaptist friend also still headcover?

the Spirit of God does not contradict itself.

Also, obedience to God doesn't mean we are free from disease nor cost of following Him.

Oh yes, she definitely wears the veiling, no pants, etc.

Well in Holmes County, most Anabaptist didn't wear masks (ask Neto) They weren't expecting to be free from sickness or disease, they dealt with it- they didn't put their trust in masks & they were the first county to be code yellow, so perhaps the Spirit directing them wasn't contradicting.

[RZehr]

Were masks required to be worn in Holmes County? Or not? Or just recommended?

[ohio jones]

Were masks required to be worn in Holmes County? Or not? Or just recommended?

Same rules as the rest of the state; required for indoor public spaces, public transportation and ride sharing, etc.

There are a few exceptions, such as for "an officiant of a religious services" [sic]. We have a renewed appreciation for the priesthood of all believers.

[JimFoxvog]

I always have been a bit puzzled by Jesus saying that His sheep know His voice and the voice of another they will not follow. How do you understand this when we have so many varying views on what the voice of Jesus is saying to His sheep ? Your thoughts Jim ?

What are the logical alternatives?
1) Jesus was mistaken and made a false statement.
2) Our understanding of what Jesus said is mistaken.
3) Some who believe they are Jesus' sheep in actuality aren't.

All three possibilities create difficulties. Because it does not feel a very charitable interpretation, I am hesitant to publicly say #3 is true (#2 seems more humble) but I think it the most likely alternative. What am I missing? Do you have a better answer?

[Wayne in Maine]

Seriously, though... lately I've been harkening back to various huge decisions in my Christian walk. Marriage, job changes, church changes and the like. There were times that I really wanted something really, really bad, and went to lengths to justify it by my emotions, which I confused with God's will for me. Yeah, it worked out okay (most of the time) but was I really where God wanted me?

There have been other times that random circumstances got dropped in my lap: sometimes great, happy things. Many times, not so great and happy things. And it would become extremely clear, with time, that this is exactly where God wanted me and He had a defined reason for it. I would be quite unsure of myself and yet random (some not so random) people in my life encouraging me to pursue a cause or calling.

God works in mysterious ways, for sure

I agree that we often do not hear God's will plainly for ourselves. I'm a big believer in communities of discernment and in guided strategic discernment over time. We often don't hear God's will plainly for quite a while, we may need to wander in the desert for 40 years so that God can prepare us and make us ready for his will.

The founder of the Bruderhof communities strongly encouraged this communal discernment, and it is a principle in which I strongly believe and which fits hand -in-glove with Anabaptism's concept of collective discernment. If the brotherhood is seeking God's voice and everyone in the brotherhood is in a active relationship with God through Christ (or you might say, everyone in the brotherhood is actually filled with and influenced by the Holy Spirit), then the gathered brotherhood would hear the same voice speaking to each of them individually in the matter. The brotherhood then will come to complete unanimity because they have heard the same voice.

If someone dissents it means that either the dissenter is not hearing the Holy Spirit (which implies a spiritual disconnect from God), or the rest of the brotherhood is not hearing the Holy Spirit, or all of the members of the brotherhood, including the dissenter, are not "right with God" and are not able to hear what God is telling them. Of course the entire brotherhood might come to a unanimous decision and they might all have been led astray, by another spirit. The dissenter might be the "prophet", or might be an agent of the deceiver. Any dissent, especially if a brotherhood is divided into two or more factions, creates the need for repentance and renewal by the individual in such a church and requires extreme vigilance of the spiritual state of each member to prevent the loss of the ability to hear God's voice. It's not an easy thing to attempt to be governed by the Holy Spirit!

The basic point is: If "we" claim to be filled with and guided by the Holy Spirit, then we will hear the same Spirit telling "us" the same thing. God is not schizophrenic: He does not tell different individuals contradictory things on the same matter. If individuals are hearing contradictory voices of God then someone is, in fact, not actually hearing God.

This problem of course can be mitigated by an outside source of God's word, or by other sources of authority. As followers of Jesus who hold the scriptures as authoritative, the "still small voice" guiding us will not tell us something different from what Jesus told us, or what the Apostles discerned. We might also recognize the authority of "the church" in its earlier discernment (which is how we came to accept certain books as authoritative "scripture"!).

The voice of God might also be authenticated by events. If I hear God telling me to point to a mountain and tell it to move, and the mountain does in fact move, then I might very well have actually heard God's voice. But this is not a reliable authority, as magicians and spiritual charlatans are quite able to trick those who want to believe in magic or on the charlatan's gospel.

[Wayne in Maine]

I always have been a bit puzzled by Jesus saying that His sheep know His voice and the voice of another they will not follow. How do you understand this when we have so many varying views on what the voice of Jesus is saying to His sheep ? Your thoughts Jim ?

What are the logical alternatives?
1) Jesus was mistaken and made a false statement.
2) Our understanding of what Jesus said is mistaken.
3) Some who believe they are Jesus' sheep in actuality aren't.

All three possibilities create difficulties. Because it does not feel a very charitable interpretation, I am hesitant to publicly say #3 is true (#2 seems more humble) but I think it the most likely alternative. What am I missing? Do you have a better answer?

I find your statement "because it does not feel a very charitable interpretation" especially interesting, as I think we in tolerant liberal America are often guided by this sort of ethic, not wanting to be considered harsh or "unloving". I know other people who are guided by a different ethic who are willing to be more direct and forthcoming - and personally I trust those people more.

While it is impolite, I think #3 is the most accurate and aligns best with what Jesus said concerning the narrow way: "many are called [invited] but few are chosen", and "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many."

[Wayne in Maine]

Because a lot of lying goes on in political world & medical, i tend to listen to facts shared by Christian microbiologists, doctors, & nurses who are attempting to expose & inform.

But you are choosing which "Christians" microbiologists, doctors, & nurses to listen to based on your own bias that "lot of lying goes on in political world & medical". This is confirmation bias taken to another level.

[Valerie]

Because a lot of lying goes on in political world & medical, i tend to listen to facts shared by Christian microbiologists, doctors, & nurses who are attempting to expose & inform.

But you are choosing which "Christians" microbiologists, doctors, & nurses to listen to based on your own bias that "lot of lying goes on in political world & medical". This is confirmation bias taken to another level.

When I consider the agendas of the government and big pharma, the power and the money versus the Christian microbiologist, scientists, doctors, and nurses who are swimming against the current and their attempt to help people and not harm them I'm not sure that what you think about many of us who choose these people over big pharma and the government trying to dictate our health matters whatsoever, forgive me if your opinion about this doesn't persuade me another direction at all any more that I expect my opinion and direction to persuade you at all but we do lift up all of these things in prayer and trust our Lord to guide us, so people's opinions really don't matter to us- I really have no idea why a Christian nurse who actually works with covid patients, Express to me that we are being lied to, and made it clear that she will not take the vaccine.