U.S. Children of Internment

[Josh]

I understand in WWII they used the US Census data to round up the Japanese, German, and Italian US citizens and put them into camps.

If you swore allegiance to the US, you were put into a somewhat acceptable camp. If you refused, you were put in a camp with "lesser" accommodations.

Either way, you lost your freedom for several years, not based on your activities or breaking any laws, but based on your race or ethnicity - and the information you willingly provided to them on the US Census form.

I did not fill out a Census form in 2010, and they hassled us a lot, and they finally came out to our house and "guessed" the number of people that live here. In 2020, my wife got tired of my "shenanigans" and filled out the form herself. She is a real saint.

The US Census was designed only to find the people living in a State so that the number of districts for the House of Representatives can be correctly apportioned. The idea that that they can also demand your race, ethnicity, or other information in the Census is dangerous to your own freedom, as history has shown.

I now identify my ethnicity as "Other", as in "N-Other of your business!"

My Great-Great Grandfather's brother was interned in a Federal Prison camp in 1861 called "Johnson Island" in Lake Erie. When he came back, his family did not recognize him. He looked like a walking skeleton. My grandfather told me that he had to live off rats to survive. 3,000 prisoners died in the camp at Johnson Island, which held only 6,000 inmates, although 30,000 where shuttled through it - which is how they cover up the 50% death rate and make it seem like "only" a 10% kill rate. The related Camp Douglas in Chicago also killed a lot of Confederate soldiers. The Oak Woods Cemetery is where their bodies were buried and is the largest mass grave in the Western Hemisphere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Woods ... ry#History

I am very sorry to hear about any of your relatives being put into a camp, but at least they were not starved to death. And you are better off to hide, or leave the country, than to be put into a camp.

When filling out birth certificate paperwork, it demanded to know race. I asked if the health department if I could decline and they said no, this information is very important for "health purposes". So I checked all of the boxes (there were 20 or so to choose from), as I consider all humans to be of one human race, and in any case, I don't think government departments need to be gathering data to find out who exactly where is of what race - such information can only be used in order to enable discrimination.

[JohnHurt]

When filling out birth certificate paperwork, it demanded to know race. I asked if the health department if I could decline and they said no, this information is very important for "health purposes". So I checked all of the boxes (there were 20 or so to choose from), as I consider all humans to be of one human race, and in any case, I don't think government departments need to be gathering data to find out who exactly where is of what race - such information can only be used in order to enable discrimination.

An easy "out" is to claim to be Native American. It worked for Elizabeth Warren and got her into Yale.

If your ancestors came over on the boat, you probably have a "little" Native American somewhere, as things were tough on frontier, and there were not a lot of European women that could survive. Loretta Lynn and Crystal Gayle are both half Cherokee, but it not obvious if you don't know. Abraham Lincoln was half Cherokee, from my studies. Lincoln sure killed a lot of white people.

I would not identify as Native American to advance myself over others, like Warren did, but only to prevent discrimination against myself and my family.

I like your idea about identifying as all races. That's great, and really messes up their statistics.

[temporal1]

i appreciate input on this.

in recent years, i’ve wondered at the unique phenomena in the U.S., wherein German ancestry citizens quickly fell from being valued and respected citizens to losing that favor, even becoming targeted as “enemy aliens” as a group - due to others in Europe.
that is a very hard fall. imagine going from bilingual public ed to being erased+forgotten.

with little or no objection. ever.

today’s law schools would have none of that!! - no objection? no way. objections would go on for decades, involving new laws and the public treasury. legal wrangling is now standard operating procedure.

i have a sense this “demotion of all things German” in a culture that before benefited and valued from that heritage had a long ripple effect that continues. in dozens, if not hundreds of ways.

a google search on children of internment results in almost all references to Japanese Americans, almost nothing regarding German, Italian, or other. the results that showed up on my search may have been there only because of my recent search of the OP documentary. i hate to say.

No need for this topic to be isolated to the internment history.
Lots of things happened, and continue, due to the two World Wars.
There are some reports of how the ripple effect lingers on+in Germany. The U.S. has a related experience.

Sins+crimes do not stay isolated. There is a long ripple effect.
Human reasoning says “children should not pay for their fathers’ sins.” But they do pay. Sometimes for generations.

Possibly the single greatest DETERRENT to sins+crimes is knowing loved ones will suffer, too.
Remove that one incentive, sins+crimes would increase exponentially.

This has nothing to do with “race.”
It’s human frailty.

[temporal1]

Page 1

What about broaching history for history’s value, without underlying motives to change laws, to pilfer the public treasury?
To me, this is a matter of basic education and history. i hope some remnant of it survives. somehow.

Bilingual education? - “German in public elementary schools 1840-1919” ..
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1085040?seq=1

80 years of public ed history - gone, and rarely mentioned. along with an awful lot more. logic would suggest.

1840-1919 - World War 1 brought the end of 80 years of German language in U.S. public schools.
This is significant. A big change with lasting repercussions. Under the radar.

Compare+contrast with present day drama over “every little thing.”

[temporal1]

Josh:
..I don't think government departments need to be gathering data to find out who exactly where is of what race - such information can only be used in order to enable discrimination.

info can be used for good or bad.
incidents of disease, sickle cell anemia, etc., can be useful - but, today, there is a question about whether this would be allowed, or covered up. details about disease outbreaks+crime are often hidden. it can be frustrating.

there are policies that undermine science, public health and safety. instead of vice versa.
presently, stats are heavily used for partisan politics. for creating cherry-picked super citizens.

[JohnHurt]

Page 1

What about broaching history for history’s value, without underlying motives to change laws, to pilfer the public treasury?
To me, this is a matter of basic education and history. i hope some remnant of it survives. somehow.

Bilingual education? - “German in public elementary schools 1840-1919” ..
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1085040?seq=1

80 years of public ed history - gone, and rarely mentioned. along with an awful lot more. logic would suggest.

1840-1919 - World War 1 brought the end of 80 years of German language in U.S. public schools.
This is significant. A big change with lasting repercussions. Under the radar.

Compare+contrast with present day drama over “every little thing.”

I understand there was a vote in the early US Congress on whether the national official language of the USA would be English or German, and it was narrowly decided to be English.

[temporal1]

Page 1

What about broaching history for history’s value, without underlying motives to change laws, to pilfer the public treasury?
To me, this is a matter of basic education and history. i hope some remnant of it survives. somehow.

Bilingual education? - “German in public elementary schools 1840-1919” ..
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1085040?seq=1

80 years of public ed history - gone, and rarely mentioned. along with an awful lot more. logic would suggest.

1840-1919 - World War 1 brought the end of 80 years of German language in U.S. public schools.
This is significant. A big change with lasting repercussions. Under the radar.

Compare+contrast with present day drama over “every little thing.”

I understand there was a vote in the early US Congress on whether the national official language of the USA would be English or German, and it was narrowly decided to be English.

JohnHurt,
i’m glad you mentioned this.
From my memory and personal experience in (quite a good public school.) -

When i was in school, 1950’s-60’s, this “narrow vote,” or, “1 vote decided English over German language” for the U.S., was taught as part of History and possibly part of Civics, possibly included in English and “Social Studies.” It was taught formally AND included less formally in related classes and discussions.

In other words, there was thoughtful recognition of the importance of German language and heritage in public schools.
Nothing obsessive. Simply recognition of U.S. history, along with the body of various school topics.

Possibly like learning “water is wet,” when studying marine science. Basics.

(“Social Studies” was a new subject, i believe combining+replacing History and Geography, which many parents did not approve.)

Today, a la Google, questions about this history are DISMISSED as being an “Urban Legend,” altho this phrase was unknown in those prior years. My experience was that it was far more than an urban legend. (But see how effective such language is at erasing history!)

Here is what is likely to be found:

An urban legend, sometimes called the Muhlenberg legend after Frederick Muhlenberg, states that English only narrowly defeated German as the U.S. official language.

In reality, the proposal involved a requirement that government documents be translated into German.

Ethnicity: German Americans; Austrian Americans; Swiss Americans; Liechtensteiner ...
Language family: Indo-European > Germanic > West Germanic > High German > Ge...
Writing system: Latin (German alphabet)
Region: United States
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ger...
German language in the United States - Wikipedia

This ^^ is written in a manner that causes the presumption that the German language was “nothing” and the topic is not worth knowing or understanding. The decision is made by “Wiki folks” and delivered wholesale into the culture.

Ancient German became Dutch, Danish, German, Norwegian, Swedish and one of the languages that developed into English.

The English language is a result of the invasions of the island of Britain over many hundreds of years. Dec 25, 2012

https://learningenglish.voanews.com › ...
Where Did the English Language Come From?

This ^^ provides a bit more background.

When did Germans come to America?

The largest flow of German immigration to America occurred between 1820 and World War I, during which time nearly six million Germans immigrated to the United States. From 1840 to 1880, they were the largest group of immigrants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
German Americans - Wikipedia

This ^^ suggests the reason+timing for U.S. Public Schools to be bilingual, English and German, 1840-1919 (WWI).

- - - - - - -

A related note is,

Imagehttps://www.usconstitution.net › con...

Constitutional Topic: Official Language - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

The English language shall be the official language of the United States. As the official language, the English language shall be used for all public acts including every order, resolution, vote, or election, and for all records ..

Languages of the United States - Wikipedia
Official languages —
Although the United States does not have an official language, the most commonly used language is English
(specifically, American English), which is the de facto national language, and ...

Main: English 78.1%, Spanish 13.5%, other Indo-European languages 3.7%, Asian ...

https://www.worldatlas.com › articles
What Is The Official Language Of The United States? - WorldAtlas

Feb 2, 2021 — The United States has no official language. ·
English is spoken by the overwhelming majority of Americans. ·
Spanish is the second-most spoken language in the US after English. · At least 350 ...

[temporal1]

^^^

English Language Unity Act - Wikipedia
The English Language Unity Act was first introduced in 2005.
It hoped to establish English as the official language of the federal government of the United States.
If passed it would require that all official functions and ..

This is not meant to trail off into discussions of whether the U.S. should establish English as its official language.
That’s another topic. i have no position on it. just pointing out reality.

This thread is about “how+why” the German language+heritage morphed from being valued, recognized, appreciated in the U.S.,
to being effectively (hated) then ignored, denied, forgotten.

[Josh]

It should be noted that it has been perfectly normal in the history of the whole world for foreigners in a new country to be viewed with great suspicion when that country goes to war with the country the foreigners were from. People are usually loyal to their own ethnic group.

[temporal1]

It should be noted that it has been perfectly normal in the history of the whole world for foreigners in a new country to be viewed with great suspicion when that country goes to war with the country the foreigners were from. People are usually loyal to their own ethnic group.

i agree 100%.
i’m sad about the Japanese-descent U.S. legal citizens that were treated harshly.
bad things happen in times of war.
no one knows how they would react if they’d not experienced it. Monday morning quarterbacks are a dime a dozen.

people are presumed to be loyal to their ethnic/national origins. this is not always the case.

i’m bothered that history is not reflected in balance, that U.S. citizens of other national origin were treated similarly,
but this fact is overall ignored.

Add to that, the numbers of German descent LEGAL CITIZENS, their acceptance+importance in the U.S., then, to be struck down so thoroughly. This represents significant change in U.S. history-culture that continues today - ignored.

The focus on the wrong of U.S. internment camps is largely around mistreatment of LEGAL U.S. CITIZENS - due to their ancestry.

(Today, chatter is more about the treatment of illegal aliens, not at war, another topic.)