You are completely twisting what I said backwards, but that's no change; you've turned twisting my words into a sport harkening all the way back to the MennoNerds days. Take a step back and try to actually understand what I am saying.
Overall, rural people prefer different politics than urban people. It would be best to allow them to engage in self-government. There will always be a minority that doesn't like the dominant politics in a region, like conservative people who live in cities like Portland.
What doesn't make sense is organising government such that the megacity in a region sets policy for the rest of the state, or that the federal government is basically controlled by political representation from a few megacities. America is set up so that both populous places get a voice, and so do non-populous places.
Of course if you don't like the government where you live, there's always the option to move to a place where you like it more. That's entirely a choice up to you. For example, if you think Colorado's taxes are too low, you could try moving to California, where they are quite high.
I understand what you’re saying. I also see you — a city dweller and an outsider — telling rural people what to do. It you came down here and told farmers and ranchers that they should turn their land over to the bison and migrate, how do you think they are going to respond?
What I said from the start is that responsible self government is best; I have no desire to rule as supreme dictator over Colorado, but by the same token, rural Colorado isn’t best governed by people in Denver, Washington, or Brussels.
I don’t work in government and don’t make it my business to order other people around. I do think sustainable agriculture is best and often discuss this with people who are rancher and farmers. So far, very few people I talk to even disagree with me. Many of them are feeling very pinched with their feed prices skyrocketing (eg soybeans for egg farmers costing double of last year) yet they are getting paid just a little bit more (around 15%) for their end product. I have yet to have a conversation with the conclusion that Big Ag knows best and that more corporate consolidation of farmland and farm ownership is a good thing.
What is internally inconsistent about your position is that most of the forces affecting agriculture that you are talking about (commodity prices, input costs, and corporate consolidation) are all factors that local governments are utterly powerless to regulate. Addressing those issues in any sort of meaningful way requires effective government and policy at the Federal level if not international level.
We live in a global world. And some form of 19th Century New England town hall type of local democracy isn't going to be able to address the actual forces that affect rural America. You actually do need Denver, Washington, and Brussels.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Szdfan wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 8:04 pm
I understand what you’re saying. I also see you — a city dweller and an outsider — telling rural people what to do. It you came down here and told farmers and ranchers that they should turn their land over to the bison and migrate, how do you think they are going to respond?
What I said from the start is that responsible self government is best; I have no desire to rule as supreme dictator over Colorado, but by the same token, rural Colorado isn’t best governed by people in Denver, Washington, or Brussels.
I don’t work in government and don’t make it my business to order other people around. I do think sustainable agriculture is best and often discuss this with people who are rancher and farmers. So far, very few people I talk to even disagree with me. Many of them are feeling very pinched with their feed prices skyrocketing (eg soybeans for egg farmers costing double of last year) yet they are getting paid just a little bit more (around 15%) for their end product. I have yet to have a conversation with the conclusion that Big Ag knows best and that more corporate consolidation of farmland and farm ownership is a good thing.
What is internally inconsistent about your position is that most of the forces affecting agriculture that you are talking about (commodity prices, input costs, and corporate consolidation) are all factors that local governments are utterly powerless to regulate. Addressing those issues in any sort of meaningful way requires effective government and policy at the Federal level if not international level.
We live in a global world. And some form of 19th Century New England town hall type of local democracy isn't going to be able to address the actual forces that affect rural America. You actually do need Denver, Washington, and Brussels.
I have zero interest in being ruled by Brussels, and they don’t have my best interests in mind either.
We have always lived in a “global world”. That doesn’t mean globalism is good. So far, all it’s done is concentrated a lot of wealth in the hands of the few, given us absolutely massive wars, and led to the entire populace being obese, unhealthy, and living in fear of global pandemics.
I have zero interest in being ruled by Brussels, and they don’t have my best interests in mind either.
We have always lived in a “global world”. That doesn’t mean globalism is good. So far, all it’s done is concentrated a lot of wealth in the hands of the few, given us absolutely massive wars, and led to the entire populace being obese, unhealthy, and living in fear of global pandemics.
Does the wealth not get concentrated into the hands of the few, etc., without globalism? Seem like these things happen in all systems, and in all time periods.
I suppose Jacobs and Esaus servants saw wealth concentration in Jacob, Esau and Lot, and experienced wars that were senseless to them.
I have zero interest in being ruled by Brussels, and they don’t have my best interests in mind either.
We have always lived in a “global world”. That doesn’t mean globalism is good. So far, all it’s done is concentrated a lot of wealth in the hands of the few, given us absolutely massive wars, and led to the entire populace being obese, unhealthy, and living in fear of global pandemics.
Does the wealth not get concentrated into the hands of the few, etc., without globalism? Seem like these things happen in all systems, and in all time periods.
I suppose Jacobs and Esaus servants saw wealth concentration in Jacob, Esau and Lot, and experienced wars that were senseless to them.
Karl Marx believed that the inevitable result of Communism were local autonomous worker collectives without a centralized government. Didn't exactly work out that way.
The last (I think) New Deal program still in effect are soil conservation districts, which played a crucial part in ending the Dust Bowl. Some of my wife's cousins work for the program in Oklahoma and one of their current challenges are new hobby farmers who don't understand the point or reason for soil conservation. We had a pretty bad dust storm last weekend. Without this program, we would quickly fall back into Dust Bowl conditions during a drought year and the program would be ineffective if it only relied on "local control," since wind doesn't care about state borders and property lines.
I have zero interest in being ruled by Brussels, and they don’t have my best interests in mind either.
We have always lived in a “global world”. That doesn’t mean globalism is good. So far, all it’s done is concentrated a lot of wealth in the hands of the few, given us absolutely massive wars, and led to the entire populace being obese, unhealthy, and living in fear of global pandemics.
Does the wealth not get concentrated into the hands of the few, etc., without globalism? Seem like these things happen in all systems, and in all time periods.
I suppose Jacobs and Esaus servants saw wealth concentration in Jacob, Esau and Lot, and experienced wars that were senseless to them.
Wealth was also centralized among a few in decentralized medieval feudal Europe and the city states of Renaissance Italy. These places also suffered war and plague, including the bubonic plague (i.e. "the Black Death") from 1346 to 1353. The Italian city states experienced a series of devastating wars among themselves between 1494 and 1559.
Ancient Greece also comprised of city states, who were often in conflict and at war with each other. Athenian democracy ended as a result of the Peloponnesian War when it was conquered by Sparta.
Szdfan wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:23 pm
The last (I think) New Deal program still in effect are soil conservation districts, which played a crucial part in ending the Dust Bowl. Some of my wife's cousins work for the program in Oklahoma and one of their current challenges are new hobby farmers who don't understand the point or reason for soil conservation. We had a pretty bad dust storm last weekend. Without this program, we would quickly fall back into Dust Bowl conditions during a drought year and the program would be ineffective if it only relied on "local control," since wind doesn't care about state borders and property lines.
The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), the Social Security Administration, the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC), the Federal Housing Administration (FHA), and the Fair Labor Standards Act (which established the minimum wage, the 40 hour week, and prohibitions on child labor) are all New Deal programs that are still in effect, among many others.
But your point is a good one.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Szdfan wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:23 pm
The last (I think) New Deal program still in effect are soil conservation districts, which played a crucial part in ending the Dust Bowl. Some of my wife's cousins work for the program in Oklahoma and one of their current challenges are new hobby farmers who don't understand the point or reason for soil conservation. We had a pretty bad dust storm last weekend. Without this program, we would quickly fall back into Dust Bowl conditions during a drought year and the program would be ineffective if it only relied on "local control," since wind doesn't care about state borders and property lines.
The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), the Social Security Administration, the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC), the Federal Housing Administration (FHA), and the Fair Labor Standards Act (which established the minimum wage, the 40 hour week, and prohibitions on child labor) are all New Deal programs that are still in effect, among many others.
But your point is a good one.
Yeah...I had heard that conservation districts was the New Deal program, but wasn’t sure and it didn’t see right, hence the (I think). Thanks for the correction.
Josh wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:16 am I have zero interest in being ruled by Brussels, and they don’t have my best interests in mind either.
We have always lived in a “global world”. That doesn’t mean globalism is good. So far, all it’s done is concentrated a lot of wealth in the hands of the few, given us absolutely massive wars, and led to the entire populace being obese, unhealthy, and living in fear of global pandemics.
Does the wealth not get concentrated into the hands of the few, etc., without globalism?
Seem like these things happen in all systems, and in all time periods.
I suppose Jacobs and Esaus servants saw wealth concentration in Jacob, Esau and Lot, and experienced wars that were senseless to them.
It seems to me ..
the world, every continent/culture, has always had its 1%; i usually think of the pharaohs and their pyramids, the Roman Roads, the Chinese dynasties ..
Marco Rubio spoke to contemporary dreams of globalism, versus the competing reality of nationalism:
One thing that has been lost with Federal laws and "progress" is sensible cars that are built to last.
(Lately been seeing various auto repair shops talking about how the push for higher and higher MPG has resulted in things like 0 viscosity motor oil and low tension piston rings which, yes, do result in around 4 or so miles more per gallon, but according to many mechanics, this comes at the price of cars that burn oil and wear out sooner than cars from 14 to 20 years ago.)
I have zero interest in being ruled by Brussels, and they don’t have my best interests in mind either.