Things that are lost with "Progress" and "Federal Government"

[temporal1]

Ken,
No, I'm just curious how Chicago "machine politics" affects life in rural southern Illinois and what make rural life in Illinois different from rural life in other nearby states like Indiana or Missouri. That is what Temporal1 was claiming.

No. i did not compare Illinois with other states, you did.

Most disturbing is that you somehow think that Chicago taxes going to subsidize Southern Illinois indicates Chicago “cares” about downstate Illinois. i have said (many times) i do not believe Chicago Dem politicians care anything at all about downstate, or outside the Chicago area.

i’m not alone.
There is an ongoing divide between Chicago politicians and the rest of the state. It’s a stated fact, in Illinois, and in some other states that feel bullied by big urban centers. appleman in Canada has described an even worse situation in Canada.

To clarify, when i say Chicago does not care about downstate, i’m NOT talking about gov subsidies.
i’m talking about JOBS, INDUSTRY, EMPLOYMENT - thriving communities that CONTRIBUTE. politicians can promote policies/laws that invite jobs or kill them.

It’s chilling to see what a grossly government-centric mindset is now the norm for so many.
This was not the original plan, or anything like it.

There is no reason to trust this particular path, secular government as god, will end well.
It’s been tried in history far more often than the U.S. experiment has.

“A petition urging the government to give $2,000 monthly stimulus checks to every American has surpassed 2 million signatures”
https://www.businessinsider.com/petitio ... ple-2021-5

[Ken]

Ken,
No, I'm just curious how Chicago "machine politics" affects life in rural southern Illinois and what make rural life in Illinois different from rural life in other nearby states like Indiana or Missouri. That is what Temporal1 was claiming.

No. i did not compare Illinois with other states, you did.

Most disturbing is that you somehow think that Chicago taxes going to subsidize Southern Illinois indicates Chicago “cares” about downstate Illinois. i have said (many times) i do not believe Chicago Dem politicians care anything at all about downstate, or outside the Chicago area.

i’m not alone.
There is an ongoing divide between Chicago politicians and the rest of the state. It’s a stated fact, in Illinois, and in some other states that feel bullied by big urban centers. appleman in Canada has described an even worse situation in Canada.

To clarify, when i say Chicago does not care about downstate, i’m NOT talking about gov subsidies.
i’m talking about JOBS, INDUSTRY, EMPLOYMENT - thriving communities that CONTRIBUTE. politicians can promote policies/laws that invite jobs or kill them.

It’s chilling to see what a grossly government-centric mindset is now the norm for so many.
This was not the original plan, or anything like it.

There is no reason to trust this particular path, secular government as god, will end well.
It’s been tried in history far more often than the U.S. experiment has.

“A petition urging the government to give $2,000 monthly stimulus checks to every American has surpassed 2 million signatures”
https://www.businessinsider.com/petitio ... ple-2021-5

You still haven't explained or provided a single example of how Chicago destroys industry, jobs, and employment in Southern Illinois.

Note. People say the same thing out here the Pacific Northwest about Portland or Seattle sucking the economic life out of rural Oregon and Washington. I just don't see it.

[RZehr]

Well, in the PNW, it was the urban centers that pushed for logging to cease in rural Oregon and Washington.
And it is again the same urban areas that pushed for less irrigation water for farms and instead let the water run to the sea.
And it is the same urban areas that pushed the field burning until it was legally abolished.
And it is the urban areas that push to make mining impossible.
It is the same with the commercial fishing.
Agriculture, forestry, mining, fisheries, are all under constant attack from urbanites. These are core rural livelihoods.

Lot of sucking of livelihoods. You can justify it however you want to, but the fact remains that it was and is predominantly urban/out of area people vs. local rural people.

[temporal1]

First, apologies to Ernie for persistent bunny trails.
i took one post to Bunny Trails, Page 69. in my view, several belong there. (not my decision.)
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=209&start=680

Well, in the PNW, it was the urban centers that pushed for logging to cease in rural Oregon and Washington.
And it is again the same urban areas that pushed for less irrigation water for farms and instead let the water run to the sea.
And it is the same urban areas that pushed the field burning until it was legally abolished.
And it is the urban areas that push to make mining impossible.
It is the same with the commercial fishing.
Agriculture, forestry, mining, fisheries, are all under constant attack from urbanites. These are core rural livelihoods.

Lot of sucking of livelihoods. You can justify it however you want to, but the fact remains that it was and is predominantly urban/out of area people vs. local rural people.

RZehr,
Good examples.

Regarding Illinois, geographically, it’s a big state. “Downstate” Illinois is a general reference to areas outside Chicago/Cook County, and suburbs. There are regions in Illinois, northern, central, southern. “Downstate” is not used to indicate southern Illinois, which is distinct from central and northern illinois. S IL even has a slightly different accent/dialect. i would guess Washington and Oregon would have similar regions, some very different from Seattle or Portland.

So, i agree with Ken, ignorance abounds.
Sadly, no effort is made to understand conflicting problems in balance. Thus, a lot of people feel bullied. And jobless.

appleman describes similar+worse in Canada.
he cites serious lack of respect and representation for small town/rural areas in Canada.

Encouraging business is not rocket science.
Unlike politics, business must be ACCOUNTABLE. Policies either allow/encourage or kill.
Unfortunately, when urbanites move, they take their voting habits with them, in time, they recreate the stinking mess they left. And blindly wonder “why?” i’ve listened to many in Seattle describe how nice the area was BEFORE Southern California moved in.

i have an idea for this:
i would like to see states that are managed well, fiscally responsible, etc., implement a state version of the naturalization civics test before residency could be approved in those states. no voting until you pass the state civics test.

similar is done for state driving tests, registering vehicles. pass the test.

education could not hurt.

one early civics point could be: stop voting for Chicago politicians to go to D.C. (vote for representatives that have respectable fiscal and management records.)

of course, Dems would object, now that they encourage their followers to move to conservative areas:
specifically to throw votes. in Illinois, Chicago college students attending regional state universities are encouraged to vote in those locations, to NOT return to Chicago to vote! - artificially throwing downstate votes by students who have NO plans to live there after graduation. they have no shame.

“Why Is Illinois Hemorrhaging Residents?”
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... -residents

“Illinois Loses Out as Companies Move Out”
“Budget woes and political chaos have businesses and workers fleeing Illinois.”
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... f-illinois

“35% OF ILLINOIS’ SMALL BUSINESSES ARE CLOSED A YEAR INTO COVID-19 RESTRICTIONS”
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/35-of-il ... trictions/

“ Column: Indiana is open for business as the Illinois Exodus continues”
https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/ ... story.html

“ILLINOIS IS MORE DEPENDENT ON FOOD STAMPS THAN ANY OTHER NEIGHBORING STATE”
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois ... ing-state/

More:
https://www.google.com/search?q=why+has ... e&ie=UTF-8

[temporal1]

Well, in the PNW, it was the urban centers that pushed for logging to cease in rural Oregon and Washington.
And it is again the same urban areas that pushed for less irrigation water for farms and instead let the water run to the sea.
And it is the same urban areas that pushed the field burning until it was legally abolished.
And it is the urban areas that push to make mining impossible.
It is the same with the commercial fishing.
Agriculture, forestry, mining, fisheries, are all under constant attack from urbanites. These are core rural livelihoods.

Lot of sucking of livelihoods.

You can justify it however you want to, but the fact remains that it was and is predominantly urban/out of area people vs. local rural people.

yes. unlike the 1860 U.S. Civil War, the country is not divided, north and south.
it’s divided, urban versus small town/rural.

appleman describes it’s worse in Canada. he believes the U.S. Electoral College helps with those problems.

government education could AND should provide balanced facts.
public schools are funded by EVERYONE’s combined tax dollars, thus, public education should be balanced, not partisan.
not tone deaf to half the country.

the fact public ed is so partisan indicates abuse of taxpayer dollars/the public treasury, for partisan politics.
this needs to be ended. the DOE needs a thorough overhaul, if not ended. some believe it should be ended.
teachers’ unions need an overhaul, too. if not ended.

not just parents, everyone who pays taxes has a vested interest in gov schools.

these huge entities will not auto-correct.

[Josh]

If Ken really wanted to do a fair comparison, he’d compare the suburbs of Chicago (which are it’s actually economic dynamo) and the Illinois’ agriculture (its other economic dynamo) against the backdrop of rural poverty and urban poverty. This is not a clean urban vs rural divide.

[Szdfan]

It's interesting that a conversation that started about Federal government overreach has shifted to complaints about state government overreach. I suspect that if some of you got what you wanted (a weak Federal government and strong state governments) that you'd still be unhappy about the powerful overreach of the state capitals.

[temporal1]

If Ken really wanted to do a fair comparison, he’d compare the suburbs of Chicago (which are it’s actually economic dynamo) and the Illinois’ agriculture (its other economic dynamo) against the backdrop of rural poverty and urban poverty. This is not a clean urban vs rural divide.

There are always exceptions to generalizations. That doesn’t mean generalizations are useless. It means they are limited.
Agriculture. i’m not an expert, but farmers, esp big ag farmers, are generally POLITICAL. Politics provide protections.
i won’t say more, other than, politicians are influenced by ag lobbies, as they are teachers’ unions.

Ken does not show an interest in or even tolerance of fair comparisons. He represents the majority of public school teachers.
i’m very sad to say. i benefitted from public schools when teachers made an effort to teach in balance. today’s general reality is not the same. for many, the very notion of balanced ed is a foreign concept, if not an alien enemy concept.

not limited to public schools. this mindset is now common in churches.

example:
in this thread, i posted something Ken immediately determined to be “exactly wrong,” instead of simply asking “why?”
this happens a lot on the internet. jumping to conclusions, dismissing. when, “why?” might possbly open doors.

When our daughter went to our nearby Chicago large satellite university, she was shocked at the critical, sour attitude of her fellow classmates from Chicago+suburbs. She had not been raised to hate Chicago. She was shocked+hurt they had been raised to hate.
As years have passed, the mutual disregard has deepened.

“Behind the Movement to Kick Chicago Out of Illinois”
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... f-illinois

It's interesting that a conversation that started about Federal government overreach has shifted to complaints about state government overreach. I suspect that if some of you got what you wanted (a weak Federal government and strong state governments) that you'd still be unhappy about the powerful overreach of the state capitals.

Chicago is NOT the capital of Illinois.

Altho, pretenses may eventually be dropped. It’s known Chicago politicians find Springfield+downstate annoying.

For myself, i’ve begun to think of Illinois as the State of Chicago.
Maybe tax dollars could be saved by being rid of the state’s fleet of jets used for largely Chicago politics.

“State air fleet shut down”
https://thesouthern.com/news/local/govt ... 86154.html

State version of the Electoral College.
i empathize with those who prefer stronger state+local governance.
Illinois is so lost, this might only make a difference if we had a state version of the EC.

Chicago politics:
1. Implement policies that invite business, industry, workers to exit.
2. Commandeer those remaining by “fair” votes. (cough)

“Can’t beat ‘em” - force them to move away. No shame, just politics.

And, yes. i agree this is all a big bunny trail.
repeat apologies to Ernie.

[temporal1]

In the very least, voters in other states could be apprised of the mess in Illinois, and stop voting for Chicago Dems to go to D.C.
From where i sit, that makes no sense at all.

That would be like sending young married couples to those with multiple divorces for marriage counseling.

[Ken]

There are always exceptions to generalizations. That doesn’t mean generalizations are useless. It means they are limited.
Agriculture. i’m not an expert, but farmers, esp big ag farmers, are generally POLITICAL. Politics provide protections.
i won’t say more, other than, politicians are influenced by ag lobbies, as they are teachers’ unions.

Ken does not show an interest in or even tolerance of fair comparisons. He represents the majority of public school teachers.
i’m very sad to say. i benefitted from public schools when teachers made an effort to teach in balance. today’s general reality is not the same. for many, the very notion of balanced ed is a foreign concept, if not an alien enemy concept.

Oh come on.

I simply asked for some SPECIFIC examples of how big city "Chicago" politics affects life in rural Illinois, which was your claim. I am not unaware of the fact that there is an urban/rural political divide in Illinois as in every other state. I'm just asking how life in rural Illinois has been negatively affected by "Chicago Machine Politics" which was your claim.

RZehr at least provided some Oregon examples. Only one of which (grass seed burning) was a state issue governed by state politics. The rest of his examples were Federal land management or Federal resource management issues governed by Congress and not the state or city of Portland.

This thread is about how infrastructure affects development and "progress" in rural America.