the mark of the beast

[Soloist]

Aha, you failed to remember what Paul said to the Thessalonians right after he encouraged them with the "catching away".

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 
3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 

You still haven't satisfied me with the identity of the two witnesses. I just don't see their work in the historical record. And I don't believe that the church would have forgotten them, either. Nor do I believe the church would have missed the mass raising of the dead, or the mass transformation of the living church into their eternal forms. I just don't see it. I don't see destruction coming on all the faithless, either. Plus revelation being written after the destruction of the temple.

Apparently I missed that last part... Why would it be thought that revelation was wrote after?

[gcdonner]

Yes, I am aware that my understanding of the timing of these events is different than yours. And apparently the understanding of the identity of these saints is different as well, because I never said anything about 2,000 years. And I DID say "it appears so to me". I am not taking a dogmatic position on things like this.

You did, however say, "...many will be killed... Sounds pretty much like a made up mind...

You misunderstand what I wrote because you omitted the phrase which immediately follows "at least as it appears to me". There is nothing dogmatic about that.

I apologize for the misunderstanding. Believe it or not, I am not dogmatic about all of this, but I find it discouraging to be always the one being looked down on because my views don't fit the popular narratives. Just imagine me in a church that teaches pre-trib rapture...I remain silent.

[gcdonner]

Aha, you failed to remember what Paul said to the Thessalonians right after he encouraged them with the "catching away".

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 
3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 

You still haven't satisfied me with the identity of the two witnesses. I just don't see their work in the historical record. And I don't believe that the church would have forgotten them, either. Nor do I believe the church would have missed the mass raising of the dead, or the mass transformation of the living church into their eternal forms. I just don't see it. I don't see destruction coming on all the faithless, either. Plus revelation being written after the destruction of the temple.

I can't satisfy you with the identity of the 2 witnesses, because I don't know who they were. The silence of history doesn't negate the possibility that they have already existed. It appears that they witnessed after the rest of the church was taken out of Jerusalem and escaped to Pella.
I disagree that the book of Revelation was written after the destruction of the temple. From my perspective, a major part of the book is given to describing the destruction of the city and temple.
Consider the implications of Revelation 18. BTW, there is no indication of a rebuilding of the temple in the NT. Jesus called for it's destruction. The New Jerusalem replaces it, being as it is described the bride of Christ and the wife of the Lamb. Who is the bride of Christ?

[Valerie]

Aha, you failed to remember what Paul said to the Thessalonians right after he encouraged them with the "catching away".



You still haven't satisfied me with the identity of the two witnesses. I just don't see their work in the historical record. And I don't believe that the church would have forgotten them, either. Nor do I believe the church would have missed the mass raising of the dead, or the mass transformation of the living church into their eternal forms. I just don't see it. I don't see destruction coming on all the faithless, either. Plus revelation being written after the destruction of the temple.

I can't satisfy you with the identity of the 2 witnesses, because I don't know who they were. The silence of history doesn't negate the possibility that they have already existed. It appears that they witnessed after the rest of the church was taken out of Jerusalem and escaped to Pella.
I disagree that the book of Revelation was written after the destruction of the temple. From my perspective, a major part of the book is given to describing the destruction of the city and temple.
Consider the implications of Revelation 18. BTW, there is no indication of a rebuilding of the temple in the NT. Jesus called for it's destruction. The New Jerusalem replaces it, being as it is described the bride of Christ and the wife of the Lamb. Who is the bride of Christ?

According to the vast majority of scholars, Revelation was composed during the fierce persecution in the latter part of the reign of Domitian (AD 81-96) when John was in exile on the Isle of Patmos.
Another clue about this, later date, is when in Revelation 2:13 when Jesus says 'and you hold fast to My name and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful martyr who was killed among you where Satan dwells"Antipas was Bishop of Pergamos and was martyred in AD 92 by being burned to death in a heated bronze bull, having witnessed before the Roman Governor that Jesus is Lord.

So if Jesus referring to Antipas as a martyr and he was martyred in ad 92 there's no way this book could have been written before then

[gcdonner]

I can't satisfy you with the identity of the 2 witnesses, because I don't know who they were. The silence of history doesn't negate the possibility that they have already existed. It appears that they witnessed after the rest of the church was taken out of Jerusalem and escaped to Pella.
I disagree that the book of Revelation was written after the destruction of the temple. From my perspective, a major part of the book is given to describing the destruction of the city and temple.
Consider the implications of Revelation 18. BTW, there is no indication of a rebuilding of the temple in the NT. Jesus called for it's destruction. The New Jerusalem replaces it, being as it is described the bride of Christ and the wife of the Lamb. Who is the bride of Christ?

According to the vast majority of scholars, Revelation was composed during the fierce persecution in the latter part of the reign of Domitian (AD 81-96) when John was in exile on the Isle of Patmos.
Another clue about this, later date, is when in Revelation 2:13 when Jesus says 'and you hold fast to My name and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful martyr who was killed among you where Satan dwells"Antipas was Bishop of Pergamos and was martyred in AD 92 by being burned to death in a heated bronze bull, having witnessed before the Roman Governor that Jesus is Lord.

So if Jesus referring to Antipas as a martyr and he was martyred in ad 92 there's no way this book could have been written before then

There are many scholars who also believe that Antipas was martyred under Nero around AD68, which would agree with the early date of the writing of Revelation. The tradition of being burned to death in a heated bronze bull is considered of much later application.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The vast majority of the internal evidence points to an early date, imo. More and more scholars are pointing to an earlier date, rather than the later supposed date.

[Valerie]

According to the vast majority of scholars, Revelation was composed during the fierce persecution in the latter part of the reign of Domitian (AD 81-96) when John was in exile on the Isle of Patmos.
Another clue about this, later date, is when in Revelation 2:13 when Jesus says 'and you hold fast to My name and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful martyr who was killed among you where Satan dwells"Antipas was Bishop of Pergamos and was martyred in AD 92 by being burned to death in a heated bronze bull, having witnessed before the Roman Governor that Jesus is Lord.

So if Jesus referring to Antipas as a martyr and he was martyred in ad 92 there's no way this book could have been written before then

There are many scholars who also believe that Antipas was martyred under Nero around AD68, which would agree with the early date of the writing of Revelation. The tradition of being burned to death in a heated bronze bull is considered of much later application.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The vast majority of the internal evidence points to an early date, imo. More and more scholars are pointing to an earlier date, rather than the later supposed date.

I realized your disrespect for the Orthodox Church, but they began with Jesus, They have historical Church records from the earliest days of the Church as they were actually there, so i will tend to trust their historical records-

[gcdonner]

There are many scholars who also believe that Antipas was martyred under Nero around AD68, which would agree with the early date of the writing of Revelation. The tradition of being burned to death in a heated bronze bull is considered of much later application.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The vast majority of the internal evidence points to an early date, imo. More and more scholars are pointing to an earlier date, rather than the later supposed date.

I realized your disrespect for the Orthodox Church, but they began with Jesus, They have historical Church records from the earliest days of the Church as they were actually there, so i will tend to trust their historical records-

I can't help it if you continue to believe this line of reasoning. The RC says they began with Jesus, so do the Church of God in Christ Mennonite. The fact is that what you posited is "tradition", not scripture.

[Valerie]

There are many scholars who also believe that Antipas was martyred under Nero around AD68, which would agree with the early date of the writing of Revelation. The tradition of being burned to death in a heated bronze bull is considered of much later application.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The vast majority of the internal evidence points to an early date, imo. More and more scholars are pointing to an earlier date, rather than the later supposed date.

I realized your disrespect for the Orthodox Church, but they began with Jesus, They have historical Church records from the earliest days of the Church as they were actually there, so i will tend to trust their historical records-

That's because the East & West Church was not Scismed until 1054 AD. It was still the Church- so it was "one" at the time of Revelation. Thats who determined which books of the Bible where canonized. You brought up "history" & so did i based on Church records which the Orthodox & RC had at ghat time, including Antipas. It verifies dates when you know when Antipas was Bishop as they recorded it & his death, which probably has a lot yo do with why most scholars agree on the latter date. It doesn't fit the view that Christ had already returned, i realize, none the less i trust those who canonized the Scriptures we use, to have the dates.

[gcdonner]

Hieromartyr Antipas, Bishop of Pergamum and Disciple of Saint John the Theologian
Commemorated on April 11

Troparion & Kontakion

The Hieromartyr Antipas, a disciple of the holy Apostle John the Theologian (September 26), was bishop of the Church of Pergamum during the reign of the emperor Nero (54-68).

During these times, everyone who would not offer sacrifice to the idols lived under threat of either exile or execution by order of the emperor. On the island of Patmos (in the Aegean Sea) the holy Apostle John the Theologian was imprisoned, he to whom the Lord revealed the future judgment of the world and of Holy Church.

“And to the angel of the Church of Pergamum write: the words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword. I know where you live, where the throne of Satan is, and you cleave unto My Name, and have not renounced My faith, even in those days when Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells” (Rev 2:12-13).

By his personal example, firm faith and constant preaching about Christ, Saint Antipas began to turn the people of Pergamum from offering sacrifice to idols. The pagan priests reproached the bishop for leading the people away from their ancestral gods, and they demanded that he stop preaching about Christ and offer sacrifice to the idols instead.

Saint Antipas calmly answered that he was not about to serve the demons that fled from him, a mere mortal. He said he worshiped the Lord Almighty, and he would continue to worship the Creator of all, with His Only-Begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit. The pagan priests retorted that their gods existed from of old, whereas Christ was not from of old but was crucified under Pontius Pilate as a criminal. The saint replied that the pagan gods were the work of human hands and that everything said about them was filled with iniquities and vices. He steadfastly confessed his faith in the Son of God, incarnate of the Most Holy Virgin.

The enraged pagan priests dragged the Hieromartyr Antipas to the temple of Artemis and threw him into a red-hot copper bull, where usually they put the sacrifices to the idols. In the red-hot furnace the martyr prayed loudly to God, imploring Him to receive his soul and to strengthen the faith of the Christians. He went to the Lord peacefully, as if he were going to sleep (+ ca. 68).
(Orthodox Church in America)

[Valerie]

Hieromartyr Antipas, Bishop of Pergamum and Disciple of Saint John the Theologian
Commemorated on April 11

Troparion & Kontakion

The Hieromartyr Antipas, a disciple of the holy Apostle John the Theologian (September 26), was bishop of the Church of Pergamum during the reign of the emperor Nero (54-68).

During these times, everyone who would not offer sacrifice to the idols lived under threat of either exile or execution by order of the emperor. On the island of Patmos (in the Aegean Sea) the holy Apostle John the Theologian was imprisoned, he to whom the Lord revealed the future judgment of the world and of Holy Church.

“And to the angel of the Church of Pergamum write: the words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword. I know where you live, where the throne of Satan is, and you cleave unto My Name, and have not renounced My faith, even in those days when Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells” (Rev 2:12-13).

By his personal example, firm faith and constant preaching about Christ, Saint Antipas began to turn the people of Pergamum from offering sacrifice to idols. The pagan priests reproached the bishop for leading the people away from their ancestral gods, and they demanded that he stop preaching about Christ and offer sacrifice to the idols instead.

Saint Antipas calmly answered that he was not about to serve the demons that fled from him, a mere mortal. He said he worshiped the Lord Almighty, and he would continue to worship the Creator of all, with His Only-Begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit. The pagan priests retorted that their gods existed from of old, whereas Christ was not from of old but was crucified under Pontius Pilate as a criminal. The saint replied that the pagan gods were the work of human hands and that everything said about them was filled with iniquities and vices. He steadfastly confessed his faith in the Son of God, incarnate of the Most Holy Virgin.

The enraged pagan priests dragged the Hieromartyr Antipas to the temple of Artemis and threw him into a red-hot copper bull, where usually they put the sacrifices to the idols. In the red-hot furnace the martyr prayed loudly to God, imploring Him to receive his soul and to strengthen the faith of the Christians. He went to the Lord peacefully, as if he were going to sleep (+ ca. 68).
(Orthodox Church in America)

Hmmm. My Orthodox Study Bible says 92 AD. I will have to find out the discrepancy reason. Their Pascha (Easter) celebration is actually today, May 2 so i won't ask today why Orthodox Church of America differs..
But the Church by the time she Canonized the Scriptures, was still looking for the Second Advent of Christ to come, as stated in the Nicene Creed. With Apostolic succession, there were no accounts that Christ had come, and most believe Revelation was written much later, which only matters if you're belief is He had already returned