Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

A place to discuss history and historical events.
temporal1

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by temporal1 »

We could start by asking why there is a black church and there is a white church...

this is an interesting phenom.

there was no forced bussing for churches.
people were and are allowed to attend of their free will.

bussing and desegregation turned out to be much more about majority white schools and neighborhoods, businesses, being made accessible by force of the sword to black students and and later, POC .. this has been largely accomplished.

possibly a gaping oversight was that nothing was (forced) “in reverse.”
there has not been equivalent forcing of white folks into black neighborhoods, businesses .. i’m unsure of schools?? bussing addressed this to a degree?? i’m unsure. in my area, there was/is bussing into black neighborhoods. years ago, charter schools were located in these neighborhoods to attract students. i’m not sure of the present. i’m sure there are strict guidelines for balanced population classrooms. they assess for several points.

but, the result is, today, there are lots of black folks who feel entitled to have black neighborhoods, schools, businesses, etc., without giving a thought to the idea this amounts to reverse discrimination. there is no “natural” desire to “share.”

i’m not aware of any predominantly white neighborhood that is not somewhat mixed, where POC are not as safe as any to drive through or visit. there are black or POC neighborhoods that are known to be unsafe for white-looking folks to drive through or visit.

neighborhoods that were not forced to integrate. over decades.

Government is NOT going to adequately serve everyone. It can’t.
Government cannot legislate morality.

The hope can be for laws to provide a framework for different and differing folks to exist with some measure of safety and hope.

The U.S. military.
An interesting side note.
Not far from me was a military base. Growing up, most of us were forbidden to go there. It was a base, the adjoining town, ditto, it existed to serve the base+overflow. Many retired military there. THE BASE WAS CLOSED. About 1990. The town adjusted the best it could to the great economic loss. They’re still trying to be just another small midwest town. Altho they inherited various buildings+infrastructure no typical small town has.

The unique thing we noticed about this town: thoroughly integrated.
Every small neighborhood was made up of every sort of person, Asian, black, Latino, white. Mixed.

It worked. Why? Frankly, i think because the military forced certain common values equally on everyone, and insisted they all live in close interdependent quarters together. When they went out into the surrounding community, they took these acquired common values+habits with them.

After the military left, i became familiar with the community - it was interesting to witness and think about how this worked out and why. My conclusion was, the military established a “common core” of many values and forced respect equally. No matter skin color or socio-economic OR FAITH background. This small community had a surprising variety of churches, places of worship.

Since 2008-ish, the population is down, lots of businesses and churches closed.
Non-military people from Chicago and other locations have moved in. Crime is up.

But, regarding successful, balanced desegregation, the U.S. military has a story to tell.

The military puts all kinds of people together in close proximity, but they certainly do not just let the “cards fall where they may.”
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Bootstrap

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:21 pm there was no forced bussing for churches.
people were and are allowed to attend of their free will.

Let's ask the Southern Baptists about that.

WHEREAS, Since its founding in 1845, the Southern Baptist Convention has been an effective instrument of God in missions, evangelism, and social ministry; and

WHEREAS, The Scriptures teach that Eve is the mother of all living (Genesis 3:20), and that God shows no partiality, but in every nation whoever fears him and works righteousness is accepted by him (Acts 10:34-35), and that God has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on the face of the earth (Acts 17:26); and

WHEREAS, Our relationship to African-Americans has been hindered from the beginning by the role that slavery played in the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention; and

WHEREAS, Many of our Southern Baptist forbears defended the right to own slaves, and either participated in, supported, or acquiesced in the particularly inhumane nature of American slavery; and

WHEREAS, In later years Southern Baptists failed, in many cases, to support, and in some cases opposed, legitimate initiatives to secure the civil rights of African-Americans; and

WHEREAS, Racism has led to discrimination, oppression, injustice, and violence, both in the Civil War and throughout the history of our nation; and

WHEREAS, Racism has divided the body of Christ and Southern Baptists in particular, and separated us from our African-American brothers and sisters; and

WHEREAS, Many of our congregations have intentionally and/or unintentionally excluded African-Americans from worship, membership, and leadership; and

WHEREAS, Racism profoundly distorts our understanding of Christian morality, leading some Southern Baptists to believe that racial prejudice and discrimination are compatible with the Gospel; and

WHEREAS, Jesus performed the ministry of reconciliation to restore sinners to a right relationship with the Heavenly Father, and to establish right relations among all human beings, especially within the family of faith.

Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That we, the messengers to the Sesquicentennial meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, assembled in Atlanta, Georgia, June 20-22, 1995, unwaveringly denounce racism, in all its forms, as deplorable sin; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we affirm the Bibles teaching that every human life is sacred, and is of equal and immeasurable worth, made in Gods image, regardless of race or ethnicity (Genesis 1:27), and that, with respect to salvation through Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for (we) are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28); and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we lament and repudiate historic acts of evil such as slavery from which we continue to reap a bitter harvest, and we recognize that the racism which yet plagues our culture today is inextricably tied to the past; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we apologize to all African-Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime; and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously (Psalm 19:13) or unconsciously (Leviticus 4:27); and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we ask forgiveness from our African-American brothers and sisters, acknowledging that our own healing is at stake; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we hereby commit ourselves to eradicate racism in all its forms from Southern Baptist life and ministry; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we commit ourselves to be doers of the Word (James 1:22) by pursuing racial reconciliation in all our relationships, especially with our brothers and sisters in Christ (1 John 2:6), to the end that our light would so shine before others, that they may see (our) good works and glorify (our) Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16); and

Be it finally RESOLVED, That we pledge our commitment to the Great Commission task of making disciples of all people (Matthew 28:19), confessing that in the church God is calling together one people from every tribe and nation (Revelation 5:9), and proclaiming that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is the only certain and sufficient ground upon which redeemed persons will stand together in restored family union as joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).
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temporal1

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by temporal1 »

., there was no forced bussing for churches.
people were and are allowed to attend of their free will. ..

to clarify, in this, my reference was to government, or by force of the sword, policy.
even in the military, a quintessential gov entity, no one is forced to worship in any specific way or with specific others.

church bodies are free to establish their statements+policies.

in the former military base small midwest town i referred to above, the Methodist church, with a vibrant majority white congregation enjoyed a popular black minister for years. no one blinked an eye. my office secretary and her husband were members. he was a retired school principal. i did not attend, but crossed paths with him in the community occasionally, just as i did other with area church leaders. it was a non-issue.

- - -

maybe more people need to go into the military to learn how to treat each other more civilly?

this is not a new thought.
many many troubled teens have ended up in the military - and benefited from the experience.
lots of parents could use parenting lessons, not to mention the widespread problems of homes without fathers present.

churches have the potential of being places to help parents. in many ways.
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Bootstrap

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:17 pm maybe more people need to go into the military to learn how to treat each other more civilly?

I'm hoping we Mennonites can find a better way - we will probably need a way that does not require us to join the military. I've been trying to focus the discussion on us, as churches, responding to this situation. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:27 pm
... and indeed has great import for the Church and its conception of what is and is not the Gospel. ..

Could we start there?

Suppose you are living in a world where blacks are not allowed in white schools, white restaurants, white bathrooms, in the white section of buses, living in a world where blacks are terrorized by groups like the Ku Klux Klan and local law enforcement and other officials just might be members of the KKK. Suppose members of black churches ask you, as members of white churches, to support them in seeking to be treated equally.

How do you respond to that? How does that relate to the Gospel and the relationship between white Christians and black Christians?
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temporal1

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by temporal1 »

I'm hoping we Mennonites can find a better way - we will probably need a way that does not require us to join the military. I've been trying to focus the discussion on us, as churches, responding to this situation. Do you have any thoughts on that?

i responded to Soloist.
then you added the SBC statement, suggesting something about forced bussing to churches?? :?
which led me to wonder about the military’s success with forced integration - but even the military does not force faith choices.

see. public education is required by law. bussing is forced.
religion is not required. bussing is not forced.

i’m not a military person - but, giving credit where credit is due, they handle integration superbly. don’t they??
and, i close with the reference to churches having unique value in helping parents. (so military discipline isn’t needed.)

then you decide to go Mennonite - about how to respond to problems in history, which basically no longer exist. :?

which gets into the present day - but this is a history thread. not politics or current events.

i admit to being very confused in this thread.

but, i’m not surprised. after all. PetrC began with questioning sacred cows.
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Bootstrap

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:51 pm then you decide to go Mennonite - about how to respond to problems in history, which basically no longer exist. :?
We are Christians on a Mennonite forum. I suspect we can at least agree that these problems existed during the time of slavery or the time of Martin Luther King. Perhaps we can even agree that some of the people falsely accusing Martin Luther King of being a Communist had agendas of their own, wanting to keep black people "in their place" - which was emphatically not in their white churches or schools.

I know few black people who agree that problems of race no longer exist. I know a lot of white people who want to tell them that. But I'm wondering if we can reach more agreement by focusing on how we would have responded in the past when we both agree those problems existed, and specifically how we would respond as Christians.
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temporal1

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by temporal1 »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:05 pm
temporal1 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:51 pm then you decide to go Mennonite - about how to respond to problems in history, which basically no longer exist. :?
We are Christians on a Mennonite forum. I suspect we can at least agree that these problems existed during the time of slavery or the time of Martin Luther King. Perhaps we can even agree that some of the people falsely accusing Martin Luther King of being a Communist had agendas of their own, wanting to keep black people "in their place" - which was emphatically not in their white churches or schools.

I know few black people who agree that problems of race no longer exist. I know a lot of white people who want to tell them that. But I'm wondering if we can reach more agreement by focusing on how we would have responded in the past when we both agree those problems existed, and specifically how we would respond as Christians.

Will you be starting a thread on that? In Anabaptist or Christian Theology?

This is PetrC’s closing OP paragraph:
.. Nevertheless the Communist party members were in the middle of a maelstrom of intolerance, disdain for individualism, particularism and pluralism; incomprehension w.r.t the value of civil liberties (speech, association); rejection of the rights to criticize, to dissent, to oppose (as long as one isn't the opposer oneself) - which haunts Western politics until today.

It is this tradition of ideas which interests me personally.

i’m hoping for more from PetrC, HK, and i’m trying to find what Thomas Sowell might have written on it. :)
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Bootstrap

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:15 pm This is PetrC’s closing OP paragraph:
.. Nevertheless the Communist party members were in the middle of a maelstrom of intolerance, disdain for individualism, particularism and pluralism; incomprehension w.r.t the value of civil liberties (speech, association); rejection of the rights to criticize, to dissent, to oppose (as long as one isn't the opposer oneself) - which haunts Western politics until today.

It is this tradition of ideas which interests me personally.
That's supposed to be a description of MLK and the black church's involvement in the Civil Rights movement? I don't think so. Not even remotely. As King pointed out, there were very, very few members of this movement who were Communist. And if we care about democracy and freedom, what about democracy and freedom and basic human rights for black people?

The new McCarthyism, shouting "Communist" at people who are not, is a lot like the old McCarthyism - intolerant, shutting people up with vivid and false accusations, uninterested in the freedom of others. And none of this is about promoting the Kingdom of God or democracy. This is perhaps particularly easy to see if we look back at the time of MLK. I mean, nobody accused the KKK of being Communists, but they were actively denying people freedom and democracy and basic dignity and safety. Often in the name of Christianity and democracy and freedom.

So I keep trying to bring this back to asking what MLK was actually doing at the time, how various white Christians responded, why some - like the Southern Baptists - felt the need to repent, how we should have responded. Maybe we can learn some lessons for today.
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Josh

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by Josh »

It would be interesting to see Bootstrap see any kind of morality outside of his hobby horse of "fighting racism" and "fighting white supremacy", as if those are the core of what the gospel consists of.

In sharp contrast, the New Testament (and indeed the entire Bible) never discusses these topics at all, but rather describes a different sort of origin for the evils in the world and the evil we see man doing to man.

Ultimately, if I wanted a primer in Critical Race Theory, I wouldn't come to MennoNet to read about it, and I wouldn't go to Mennonites to talk about it either. I wouldn't bother with Christians at all. So can we get back on topic here?
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justme

Re: Communism and the Civil Rights Movement

Post by justme »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:44 pm So can we get back on topic here?
so what is the actual topic here?
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