Mennonite Church USA says defund the police

[PetrChelcicky]

Sorry, but I had no time to read all texts. Only some remarks here:
To Ken:
I am perhaps the most obstinate defender of the wedding cake baker (and similars). I don't think that I am inconsistent.
If MCUSA founded a circle of "police tax" resisters I would defend them likewise. I do not support a general "defeat gay weddings" policy and I do not support a general "defund the police" policy - in the latter case because it is based on an insincere promise. MCUSA does in fact purport that: "You can stay the world as you are and at the same time abstain from policing people". Whereas MCUSA could at best say:"Let us try to live without policing, pay the price and look how that works."
And this is my basic argument against all kinds of Social Gospel Christianity and "Liberal Christianity".

[PetrChelcicky]

About Bootstrap's problem (which is real problem, as I admit):

"Even if it's as simple as saying, "yeah, what Chauvin did to George Floyd was inexcusable, and I'm glad he didn't get away with it. Too many police have". I don't need a press release to say that to a neighbor who wonders if I care about this thing that is weighing on him. "

Well, Bootstrap has expressed himself elegantly here, and I am glad that he circumvented the hollow catchword and weasle word "(in)justice".

Nevertheless, I could not agree sincerely. Partly because, personally, I have trained myself to find everything "excusable". But in Chauvin's case I rely to the non-personal argument "in dubio pro reo". He perhaps did not cause Floyd's death. And he certainly did not intend Floyd's death. So even if I am glad that this particular technique of arrest will not be continued, I am very sad that he was convicted to a long time in prison. I deplore it all the more, because by most people he is obviously not looked at as a person, but as a mere deal to improve race relations in general.

But if I had told that to Booitstrap's neighbour, he probably would not have understood anything, but only have got angry. So I would have preferred to keep silent and that would have not improved race relations at all.

[temporal1]

About Bootstrap's problem (which is real problem, as I admit):

"Even if it's as simple as saying, "yeah, what Chauvin did to George Floyd was inexcusable, and I'm glad he didn't get away with it. Too many police have". I don't need a press release to say that to a neighbor who wonders if I care about this thing that is weighing on him. "

Well, Bootstrap has expressed himself elegantly here, and I am glad that he circumvented the hollow catchword and weasle word "(in)justice".

Nevertheless, I could not agree sincerely. Partly because, personally, I have trained myself to find everything "excusable". But in Chauvin's case I rely to the non-personal argument "in dubio pro reo". He perhaps did not cause Floyd's death. And he certainly did not intend Floyd's death. So even if I am glad that this particular technique of arrest will not be continued, I am very sad that he was convicted to a long time in prison. I deplore it all the more, because by most people he is obviously not looked at as a person, but as a mere deal to improve race relations in general.

But if I had told that to Booitstrap's neighbour, he probably would not have understood anything, but only have got angry. So I would have preferred to keep silent and that would have not improved race relations at all.

Don’t underestimate the neighbors. They are not blind, deaf and dumb. Without their presence here, their views cannot be presumed. if i presumed, i would presume they would welcome you and be happy to speak with you. i have lived in culturally mixed areas all my life, not decreasingly so as time goes by. i find different folks very much the same in interactions with neighbors, passers-by, community and family. no matter language, faith, skin color.

[Bootstrap]

"Even if it's as simple as saying, "yeah, what Chauvin did to George Floyd was inexcusable, and I'm glad he didn't get away with it. Too many police have". I don't need a press release to say that to a neighbor who wonders if I care about this thing that is weighing on him. "

Well, Bootstrap has expressed himself elegantly here, and I am glad that he circumvented the hollow catchword and weasle word "(in)justice".

To be clear, injustice is a biblical word, used primarily in the Old Testament. If a policeman murders someone, as the jury found, that counts as injustice.

Nevertheless, I could not agree sincerely. Partly because, personally, I have trained myself to find everything "excusable". But in Chauvin's case I rely to the non-personal argument "in dubio pro reo". He perhaps did not cause Floyd's death. And he certainly did not intend Floyd's death. So even if I am glad that this particular technique of arrest will not be continued, I am very sad that he was convicted to a long time in prison. I deplore it all the more, because by most people he is obviously not looked at as a person, but as a mere deal to improve race relations in general.

The jury found him guilty of second-degree murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. When a policeman does those things in the line of duty, I think it's fair to call it injustice. He knew or should have known that he was killing someone who was already handcuffed and under control. He did not let up when breathing stopped. He did not let up until minutes after Floyd was already dead. He and his colleagues did not attempt to resuscitate Floyd. The testimony and the videos were devastating.

[Bootstrap]

I am against Police brutality. I am glad it is rare in Indiana and overall in the US. I support ways to make it rarer without removing policing that many need.

I agree.

I am also glad I am no longer part of MC-USA. I would be making a mess of things if I was still in there and seeing this. No wonder they shunned me until I left.

This curriculum really does have me shaking my head. Even though my congregation is MC-USA.

[temporal1]

In my view, without implicating police unions’ culpability, it’s a matter of identifying the odd scapegoat.
Returning incompetent or corrupt employees to active duty hurts everyone - including honorable police.
The same happens in schools and other places where unions are influential.

Christians and churches are specially positioned to persuade against committing sins+crimes.

2020 / “Cop who was fired after Parkland shooting will get his job back: Union“
https://abcnews.go.com/US/cop-fired-par ... d=70678466

2020 / “Minneapolis cop Derek Chauvin’s work, personal background detailed;
had nearly 20 complaints and two letters of reprimand”
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/30/ ... detailed-2

2020 / “After 3 years of progress, Chicago’s murder tally skyrockets in 2020”
“The uptick was felt across the city as 20 of the CPD’s 22 police districts recorded more murders.”
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020 ... -homicides

Christians and churches are specially positioned to persuade against committing sins+crimes.

[temporal1]

OP:

Mennonite USA has released a 9 week "Bible study" ??? Or "course" that is about defunding the police

They say "Mennonite Church USA (MC USA) has released a new, multimedia, online curriculum to help congregations and individuals understand and address issues of systemic police brutality."

What are your thoughts and theology on this when it come to policing and personal and community safety in a Biblical context.

Nickel Mines Tragedy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Nick ... l_shooting

On October 2, 2006, a shooting occurred at the West Nickel Mines School, an Amish one-room schoolhouse in the Old Order Amish community of Nickel Mines, a village in Bart Township, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.[1][2][3] Gunman Charles Carl Roberts IV took hostages and shot eight out of ten girls (aged 6–13), killing five, before committing suicide in the schoolhouse.[1][2][3][4]

The emphasis on forgiveness and reconciliation in the Amish community's response was widely discussed in the national media.

The West Nickel Mines School was torn down, and a new one-room schoolhouse, the New Hope School, was built at another location. ..

Jesus Christ responded to armed sentries in the same way He ministered to all.
Sending the inspired message, all lives matter.

(Personally, i don’t believe the emphasis on forgiveness and reconciliation was discussed anywhere-near enough in media,
or anywhere else, including in churches.)

[JimFoxvog]

This curriculum really does have me shaking my head. Even though my congregation is MC-USA.

I think the curriculum would lead to some interesting discussions. I will see if I can get our church to use it.

Defund the Police? An Abolition Curriculum

Introduction and purpose

The call for the abolishment of police, policing and the police state is not a new call. For centuries, Black and Indigenous people have called for the end of violence enacted on their bodies and communities by police. They have been calling for other possibilities that move us from the appearance of safety to truly safe and whole communities. In the wake of continued high profile police shootings across the United States, many people in the church pushed for an Anabaptist-oriented response and resources that helped us to move as a church into solidarity with the pain and brutality being felt and witnessed on Black, brown and Indigenous people. This curriculum is our response and invitation that we allow the Spirit to awaken our imagination to build a world where we can all be safe(r) and flourish without threats of violence.

MC USA received requests across the denomination to provide an Anabaptist grounded resource for clergy and congregations to engage in learning about the call for police abolition. When we confess “Jesus is lord” we are leaving behind systems that operate by coercion, violence and punishment. Mennonites have long recognized that following Jesus occurs in our bodies and with our lives. We remove ourselves from military service because we refuse to harm or kill people at the direction of the state. We affirm that all people are made in the image of God. We believe that it is incumbent upon the church to discuss and discern policing as another form of state-sanctioned violence.

This curriculum is an initial guide for congregations who are desiring to begin or continue their reflection on what it means to engage the forces of state, their commitments to non-violence and how to act to end policing and police brutality.
https://www.mennoniteusa.org/abolition- ... lum-intro/

[temporal1]

OP Question:

KrisKramer:
What are your thoughts and theology on this when it come to policing and personal and community safety in a Biblical context.

Answer:

From above linked article:
The emphasis on forgiveness and reconciliation in the Amish community's response was widely discussed in the national media.

In my view, The Amish leaders led well in their unspeakable tragedy.

Their response should not be dismissed as “some remote” response from a mostly unrecognized small group.
Their choice is readily available to ANYONE/ANY CHURCH that reads the Bible and believes what Jesus said.

Frankly, i see similar response to tragedy BEGIN in different churches.
The fatal mistake is made to allow both the press and politics to become involved. It’s seductive in many ways.

This is a sad sad failure of leadership.

“The emphasis on forgiveness and reconciliation” is not emphasized nearly enough, even in churches.

[temporal1]

“What if?” ..

What if the Floyd family reached out to D Chauvin and his family with forgiveness, seeking reconciliation?

(Not to say there should be no earthly consequences, investigations, trials, etc.) Many of these things, legal processes, are NOT in any individual’s control.

What is in every individual’s control? .. Jesus offers His way.

“What if?” .. churches led to Jesus.