Mennonite Church USA says defund the police

[KrisKramer]

Lots of good thoughts and discussion happening here and I enjoy reading it

When I first came across this story though I just really wondered what came of being in the world but not of the world.

Even on here there's the whole political discussion area which I do read but so much isn't how I was raised.

20 years ago voting was a world thing. A thing that is not done by "proper anabaptist christians" and now some of those same people had Trump 2020 signs in their yards last year. (This has nothing to do with who you support or dont) it's the whole thing of being separated from the world.

Hebrews 11:13-16
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
Romans 12:19
Matthew 5:38-48
1 Peter 2:21-24

I was taught growing up....
If you vote then you are as guilty for the people who get killed by the government as if you had done the killing yourself because you have taken part in the system and are not truly then nonresistant.

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight" John 18:36

[Ken]

Should MC-USA have anything at all to say about George Floyd's murder?

Sure, if it makes them feel better. It is mostly just pontificating to their own people. No one else cares. Where is the line into self importance and how close to situations does one need to be to issue a public position onto societies ears? Has the Society of Hares, Horses, & Hamsters weighed in yet? Or the Central Oregon Pear Society?

Funny how one's religious and political perspective influence one's take on these sorts of issues.

The moral positions of Christian wedding cake bakers and anti-vaxers can generate page after page of posts here.

But the moral positions of Christians who question how their tax dollars are being spent on policing, police brutality, and police murder? That is just "pontificating to their own people". and "No one else cares"

Not trying to pick on you RZehr. But seriously. What is the scale used to determine which Christian-related moral issues we deem important and worthy of deference, and which are just "pontificating?" or "performative"?

[Sudsy]

Should MC-USA have anything at all to say about George Floyd's murder? Should Christians or churches voice concerns about injustice? If so, how?

If only there would be as much concern about the eternal destiny of people. Did Jesus get involved with trying to change the slave system they were under ? When Christians and churches think they should have a say about how unregenerate folks are running the world, I think we have strayed far from the mission of Christianity.

We have opportunity to tell people that what happens in this life, with all it's unfairness and injustice, that there is a life to be lived as a Kingdom citizen and focus on our own living in this Kingdom. Tons of time being wasted on critiquing how unregenerated people think and live. And Jesus didn't ignore the slavery system but believers were told how to live in that system- both slave and slave master. What governments and police do while we live here as representatives of another country need our example not words on how sinners should be better sinners.

How should Christians voice concerns about injustice was one question. They don't. They share the Gospel and demonstrate just ways of treating their neighbour. Our concern is not how well worldly leaders run this world but rather ,should be, that people know that none of this matters and they see in us the fruit of the Spirit in the Kingdom way of life.

The New Testament’s answer to widespread slavery is to teach us that we should be slaves of Christ.

Exactly. Our personal relationship with Christ is we are His slave. Actually when one is sharing the Gospel a proper statement would be you have been bought with a price and now are a slave to Christ. A good topic regarding how Christianity is presented today.

[Josh]

Should MC-USA have anything at all to say about George Floyd's murder?

Sure, if it makes them feel better. It is mostly just pontificating to their own people. No one else cares. Where is the line into self importance and how close to situations does one need to be to issue a public position onto societies ears? Has the Society of Hares, Horses, & Hamsters weighed in yet? Or the Central Oregon Pear Society?

Funny how one's religious and political perspective influence one's take on these sorts of issues.

The moral positions of Christian wedding cake bakers and anti-vaxers can generate page after page of posts here.

But the moral positions of Christians who question how their tax dollars are being spent on policing, police brutality, and police murder? That is just "pontificating to their own people". and "No one else cares"

Not trying to pick on you RZehr. But seriously. What is the scale used to determine which Christian-related moral issues we deem important and worthy of deference, and which are just "pontificating?" or "performative"?

Ken, stop being ridiculous.

[temporal1]

In my view, without implicating police unions’ culpability, it’s a matter of identifying the odd scapegoat.

Christians and churches are specially positioned to persuade against committing sins+crimes.

Odd scapegoat? Who are you calling a scapegoat in Chauvin's murder of George Floyd?

this smells like a bunny trail .. ..
i have tried to ignore this case. from the little i read, mostly last year, i believe chauvin had a problem employment record, enough that, if i read correctly, i don’t see how he could have been employed as he was. imho, unions are responsible for returning the incompetent/corrupt to active duty (whether police, teachers, or other). they are the “big fish” that should be held to task.

in my view, another elephant in the living room.

i’m not against unions, per se.
i’m against any entity that is seen to be above accountability. unions are proudly so.

i took the trouble to respond - to a question that was more than likely an accusation.
no response.

[RZehr]

Should MC-USA have anything at all to say about George Floyd's murder?

Sure, if it makes them feel better. It is mostly just pontificating to their own people. No one else cares. Where is the line into self importance and how close to situations does one need to be to issue a public position onto societies ears? Has the Society of Hares, Horses, & Hamsters weighed in yet? Or the Central Oregon Pear Society?

Funny how one's religious and political perspective influence one's take on these sorts of issues.

The moral positions of Christian wedding cake bakers and anti-vaxers can generate page after page of posts here.

But the moral positions of Christians who question how their tax dollars are being spent on policing, police brutality, and police murder? That is just "pontificating to their own people". and "No one else cares"

Not trying to pick on you RZehr. But seriously. What is the scale used to determine which Christian-related moral issues we deem important and worthy of deference, and which are just "pontificating?" or "performative"?

I suppose like most people, the issues that are directly affecting us, matters the most to us. Then the issues that look like they will affect us in the future, matters next to us. Then other things after that.
It is this reason why black people care much more about police brutality that rural Mennonites do, and neither group cares as much about anti-Semitism as the Jews do.
It’s not because we are pro police brutality, it is because we are further removed.
To be clear, I meant that no one cared what MCUSA said, not that we don’t care about George Floyd or police brutality. I think the record would show much discussion on the matter on this forum. For example, here is a thread I started on the subject: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2894 which is currently at 38 pages.
I believe that is why we are more interested in talking about certain things than others. It’s not necessarily a matter of importance.
For example, the Uygher situation in China is worse by a factor of 10 by any measure, than racism or police brutality is in this country. But neither BLM folks nor Mennonites make talk much about it. It simply isn’t close to us.

So it’s not really a scale per say, that determines what we discuss here, at least by what I can tell. One ingredient for extensive thread participation seems to be disagreement. So if you pick a topic we all agree on, there may not be much engagement, but it’s not because it’s not an important topic. Personally, I engage here on threads that catch my interest, and that I don’t have to put much thought in. Which means I don’t engage much on deeper theological matters here.

As far as pontificating vs. what we do here? Well we do pontificate here. And it is public. I can pontificate to my family in my home too. So what is the difference? To me, in the way I used it, it is the difference between a press release, a statement; compared to a conversation. What we do here is discussion. You were able to easily ask me what I meant, challenge me with equality. Try doing that with an issued press statement. You might get a “letter to the editor published, without a reply. More likely just ignored.

[temporal1]

i’ve had this notion about the “majority of police never fire their service weapons.”
i decided to find out if anything was written on it. A sample:

“Most police never shoot, study finds”
“In N.Y., chief says well over 95% never fire weapons”
https://www.deseret.com/2000/2/21/19492 ... re-weapons

“A closer look at police officers who have fired their weapon on duty”
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... n-on-duty/

“Everything you know about police shootings is wrong”
https://nypost.com/2017/10/21/everythin ... -is-wrong/

(The Floyd case was not a shooting.) This thread is not specific to that case.

- - -

i believe the vast majority of police deserve the label, PEACE OFFICERS. and they do necessary work.
i believe the union habit of protecting+enabling the incompetent+corrupt is damaging to all.
i believe mega-political power plays do no good. they often ignore the “elephants in the living room,” while magnifying lesser ills they find selfishly beneficial and convenient.
i believe joining/supporting political blocs/cults is a mistake.

i believe churches are specially positioned to lead folks to choose Truth, to turn away from sins+crimes,
and this is where genuine hope exists.

[Robert]

I am against Police brutality. I am glad it is rare in Indiana and overall in the US. I support ways to make it rarer without removing policing that many need.

I am also glad I am no longer part of MC-USA. I would be making a mess of things if I was still in there and seeing this. No wonder they shunned me until I left.

[Ken]

It’s not because we are pro police brutality, it is because we are further removed.

To be clear, I meant that no one cared what MCUSA said, not that we don’t care about George Floyd or police brutality. I think the record would show much discussion on the matter on this forum. For example, here is a thread I started on the subject: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2894 which is currently at 38 pages.

I believe that is why we are more interested in talking about certain things than others. It’s not necessarily a matter of importance.
For example, the Uygher situation in China is worse by a factor of 10 by any measure, than racism or police brutality is in this country. But neither BLM folks nor Mennonites make talk much about it. It simply isn’t close to us.

So it’s not really a scale per say, that determines what we discuss here, at least by what I can tell. One ingredient for extensive thread participation seems to be disagreement. So if you pick a topic we all agree on, there may not be much engagement, but it’s not because it’s not an important topic. Personally, I engage here on threads that catch my interest, and that I don’t have to put much thought in. Which means I don’t engage much on deeper theological matters here.

As far as pontificating vs. what we do here? Well we do pontificate here. And it is public. I can pontificate to my family in my home too. So what is the difference? To me, in the way I used it, it is the difference between a press release, a statement; compared to a conversation. What we do here is discussion. You were able to easily ask me what I meant, challenge me with equality. Try doing that with an issued press statement. You might get a “letter to the editor published, without a reply. More likely just ignored.

Well, to be fair, I don't think MCUSA is asking you to engage with a press statement. They are preparing a curriculum that I would assume is going to be used in some churches to guide adult Sunday school discussions. So I would expect that in many churches there would be quite a diversity of opinion engaging with the topic just like here.

My larger point is that it is easy for all of us to dismiss topics that we don't tend to engage with directly. Even moral issues that others hold to be deeply important. I was probably guilty of that back in the wedding cake bakery thread. I think some hear are quick to jump to judgement or dismiss those who find American policing to be a deeply moral issue with which they need to engage as Christians. Or feel compelled to engage as "peacemakers".

Personally I think American policing is in tremendous need of reform, demilitarization, and professionalization. But I don't think we need to abolish police. In some states hairdressers have 2x the training requirements that police do. That is a problem. In some states police academy training is as short as 10 weeks. In Minneapolis where this all happened it is 16 weeks. It takes 4-6 years to become a teacher or social worker. And in most northern European countries police training is equivalent to teaching or social work. We've armed our police forces to the teeth and send them out untrained rather than teach them the difficult skills to engage with difficult people and de-escalate difficult situations in a peaceful manner.

[temporal1]

I am against Police brutality. I am glad it is rare in Indiana and overall in the US.
I support ways to make it rarer without removing policing that many need.

I am also glad I am no longer part of MC-USA. I would be making a mess of things if I was still in there and seeing this. No wonder they shunned me until I left.

This is a recent NBC report that (surprisingly) acknowledges the rarity.
It does not mention union involvement .. in my view, that would be “rarest of all.”

“Most officers never fire their guns. But some kill multiple people — and are still on the job.”
“In Seattle, one officer's multiple deadly encounters offer a window into this little understood corner of American policing.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mo ... e-n1264795

NBC:
.. Most officers never fire their weapons.
In 2019, the research-focused nonprofit National Police Foundation released a study of 1,006 police shootings at 47 departments over two years that found that 4 out of 5 officers who fired in those shootings had never discharged their guns before.
But experts know little about the ones who fire more than once. ..

Politically, there is no trust in motivation to arrive at honest, effective solutions. The motivation is for power and access to the Public Treasury. Seductive, yes. Reducing crime, no. Churches should not get caught up in it.

Churches gain trust by not jumping on political bandwagons, by offering Truth as the way out of sins+crimes.