briar patch

[temporal1]

i hope you discussed the problems of unions protecting+enabling incompetent+corrupt employees.
i hope you aren’t suggesting RZehr does not have a good Christian witness to others. at least as good as yours. right?
i trust him.

Temp, I really am asking some boundary questions to try to clarify what he thinks. I am not trying to cast him or myself in a good or bad light, question his witness, claim to have clear answers, or anything like that. And when it comes down to it, it's very difficult to have a serious conversation about these questions if people keep turning it into "who are the good people and who are the bad people". Could we please keep the focus on the topic and on the questions we are trying to sort out?

I am interested in this precisely because I struggle with the boundaries myself. I think that the Old Testament prophets had things to say about injustice, and that Jesus actually does echo them quite a bit. But I also agree that Christianity is not about taking political positions, certainly not extreme ones. So what is the Christian voice in the face of injustice?

I don't think MC-USA got it remotely right in this case. I'm not sure we do any better on MN on an average day. I'm trying to figure out what right looks like.

hmm. you did not realize how what you wrote could be suggesting you’ve got it right, and others don’t?
because, with every politicized high profile incident that comes up, you take the same position. that you have special gifts and insights, whether Trayvon Martin, or other. i’m surprised you have not started several threads on this recent case. not surprised you brought it up.

my posts are as serious and considered as yours on this topic. my question about RZehr was serious. i’m glad you noticed.
no surprise you use it to attempt to talk down to me again.

regardless of color, i don’t think ANYONE involved in a police shooting or death expects to win in court.
unions are right there.

at the moment, my cousin is trying to get some police attention to a case of his daughter being hit+killed after leaving a city bus last January. crickets. not a blip on anyone’s screen. are we surprised? not one bit.

[temporal1]

i hope you discussed the problems of unions protecting+enabling incompetent+corrupt employees.
i hope you aren’t suggesting RZehr does not have a good Christian witness to others. at least as good as yours. right?
i trust him.

Temp, I really am asking some boundary questions to try to clarify what he thinks. I am not trying to cast him or myself in a good or bad light, question his witness, claim to have clear answers, or anything like that. And when it comes down to it, it's very difficult to have a serious conversation about these questions if people keep turning it into "who are the good people and who are the bad people". Could we please keep the focus on the topic and on the questions we are trying to sort out?

I am interested in this precisely because I struggle with the boundaries myself. I think that the Old Testament prophets had things to say about injustice, and that Jesus actually does echo them quite a bit. But I also agree that Christianity is not about taking political positions, certainly not extreme ones. So what is the Christian voice in the face of injustice?

I don't think MC-USA got it remotely right in this case. I'm not sure we do any better on MN on an average day. I'm trying to figure out what right looks like.

i failed to express my gratitude for your insightful wise words. how do i deserve such attention and grace and guidance from one such as you? thank you for helping me see the error of my ways. i disturbed your dialogue, interfered with your greater purpose. please continue undisturbed as you seek inner wisdom you so highly desire. forgive my trespasses. correct my wrong ways.

[ohio jones]

I am getting tired of moving posts to the briar patch.

Stop fighting.

"I" statements are strongly encouraged. Strong use of "you" statements may get you a warning. Speak for yourself, not for others. Speak to others, not about others.

It is OKAY TO DISAGREE. We MUST do it in a Christlike way. We have no Moneychangers here, so no need to overturn tables.

[temporal1]

I am getting tired of moving posts to the briar patch.
Stop fighting.

"I" statements are strongly encouraged. Strong use of "you" statements may get you a warning. Speak for yourself, not for others. Speak to others, not about others.

It is OKAY TO DISAGREE. We MUST do it in a Christlike way. We have no Moneychangers here, so no need to overturn tables.

history in the making?
this is the first example of repentance and submission i’ve noticed landing in the briar patch.
o.well. repentance and submission are my choices going forward.

i have no definite plans. i guess i must expect more briar patch activity.

in the above post, if that’s the reference, i can’t see how there could be more use of “i” statements, it was directed to another, not about another.

if this is warning of warning is directed to me, i’m not well understanding.

- - -

Then -

WARNING RECEIVED: “EXCESSIVE BRIAR PATCHING”

hmm. ok. i’ll have to look it up to see what it means.
so, i guess it’s not a warning of a warning.

it’s kind of odd, since no one knows when or where their posts are going to land. categories changed, etc.
but, it’s the subjective nature of forums, i don’t dispute. i submit, perhaps with questions, but without quarrel.

[justme]

repentance and submission?
i certainly did not hear repentance and submission in that paragraph.

[temporal1]

repentance and submission?
i certainly did not hear repentance and submission in that paragraph.

ok. well, now i understand why the move.
my unexpected change. after reading some about some early Quakers, i decided to make a change.
i don’t expect instant gratification.

[Sudsy]

I am getting tired of moving posts to the briar patch.

Stop fighting.

"I" statements are strongly encouraged. Strong use of "you" statements may get you a warning. Speak for yourself, not for others. Speak to others, not about others.

It is OKAY TO DISAGREE. We MUST do it in a Christlike way. We have no Moneychangers here, so no need to overturn tables.

Perhaps if we followed the scripture text in James 3 there would not be a briar patch -(myself included) - James 3:17,18 AMP

But the wisdom from above is first pure [morally and spiritually undefiled], then peace-loving [courteous, considerate], gentle, reasonable [and willing to listen], full of compassion and good fruits. It is unwavering, without [self-righteous] hypocrisy [and self-serving guile]. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness (spiritual maturity) is sown in peace by those who make peace [by actively encouraging goodwill between individuals].

[Sudsy]

I think it is time for me to take a break from these conversations. I don't really fit in here and I find there is more negative impact on my spiritual life than there is positive. I appreciate those who have attempted to start threads that are less of worldly concerns and I think my understanding of being separate from the world is not quite the same as many here. I am realizing that Anabaptism as it exists today is not where my spiritual interests fit. God bless everyone as you pursue the Kingdom life as you understand it.

[Outsider]

All of YOU stop and grow up.

I think people should also not cling to an idea that "so-and-so was being mean to me" after someone says that was not their intention. The format of text conversation removes much subtlety and sub-text contained in a real, face-to-face, conversation. Hence, these doo-dads:

But even they are not really enough to match a real conversation.

Of course, there are Trolls, they exist. But I think the people arguing here have been around long enough to prove they aren't. Consider what drew us to this board in particular. If we just wanted to argue, we could go on twitter.

[temporal1]

Wake me up when the courts or investigative bodies confirm any of this.

Here is one of your condescending comments. You said you wanted details. Here is one.

This information has just been found through courts forcing ballets to be released for validation. If this is true, it should be investigated. This would clearly be fraud. I care that fraud is found and stopped. Anyone who wants a strong democracy would want that too. Democracy DOESN'T work if there is fraud.

And the tactic of attacking the messenger instead of the message has, again, been played.

Here, again, direction from the forum’s admin/owner is refuted and ignored, with divisive language and escalation of tribal warfare. In the vast majority of cases, members here accept leadership direction, often apologizing, then moving on in the spirit of learning, and learning to do better.

Very rarely has any member been blocked, most have voluntarily respected admin/mods.

Doing otherwise is simply mirroring the world’s present partisan politics, it damages this forum.
Robert leads this forum with a vastly more interactive approach than Hans did with MD. Hans was typically not available to help mods, or comment on anything.

i don’t believe tribe-building against leadership is a good path. But it is the popular method in secular partisan politics.

Can you please give examples of what you see as "all kind of partisan and tribal language" in my posts? Perhaps it would be helpful to give examples from the last month or so?

With links to the posts themselves, please, so it's easy to read in context?

I did in that exact post. Go pack and look. I underlined the comments.

opinions. never a shortage, eh?
i hesitate to add this.

in the past, mod justme sometimes would request 3rd parties refrain, i think, esp when admin+mods involve themselves, which is NOT overly frequently on this forum. i agree with this. it’s important to respect leadership, often a thankless job.

in our families, does every child have an equal or greater voice than father/parents? if so, i’m sorry for those families.
someone has to lead. no leadership is perfect, so, sometimes, imperfection happens.

it’s damaging to families when decisions become popularity contests, or by purely democratic vote. that’s mob rule.
in a family with 2 parents and 7 children, democratic votes will ensure chocolate cake instead of dinner, every night.

on this forum, when most receive “direction” or scolding from mods - they don’t call for a vote / others’ opinions.
it’s harmful to the health of the forum. it’s divisive. (i’m NOT suggesting harm is intentional.)

my first suggestion is to abide by justme’s request to let admin+mods do their jobs: refrain from adding opinions (on open forum).
second, when admin+mods speak, don’t auto-default to calling for others’ public opinions. this is an effective way of undermining leadership.

(i see) the dynamics much as a family situation, or church situation.
for reasonable function, popular or not, chosen or appointed leadership must be allowed to do their jobs.

i’m not sure, but i think i recall some reference to these things in the past, maybe probably by Robert, when MN was in early stages? possibly some of those early threads have been archived? i don’t know.

i don’t think i’m suggesting anything new here. just trying to recall Robert’s early MN framework.

In my meager observation, no member has been more “in your face” defiant against Robert.
And, no one has received more caring response, time, effort, patience, tolerance, than boot. Years of it. Entire threads have been created by Robert to interact with boot. Who has received such personal attention, tolerance, and investment?

This is my personal outside perspective.