Bunny Trails

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: The Intellectual Depth of Anabaptism

Post by Ken »

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:39 pm The "classy" wealthy folks are more likely to avoid what they consider gaudy displays of wealth. It's considered to be in better taste to signal wealth with a simple suit made out of superior cloth and by a high-end tailor than to wear a flashy suit. The same principle seems to apply regarding vehicles.

The traditions held by the old order Mennonite groups are likely to come into and go out of fashion throughout the years, but it really doesn't bother most of them because they aren't basing their traditions on the current fads. I assume that you are familiar enough with automobiles to recognize that despite the color similarities, the vehicles at the Weaverland church are simpler than those at the Academy Awards.
My point is that the RELIGIOUS focus on black as a car color is really a response to the roaring 20s, a century ago, when GM first started mass producing colored cars after Dupont developed reliable paint coatings that could produce bright metallic yet colors on cars. Colored cars were marketed in the 1920s as fancy and an extravagant luxury https://www.consumerreports.org/consume ... oring-now/ and some plain churches mandated black in response to all that explosion of color. A century later, car color no longer has any relationship to the fanciness or extravagance of cars, the fanciest ones are mostly colorless black, gray, and white. But you still have some plain churches focused on car color as a signifier of "plainness" 50 years after the concept lost meaning. This is just one of many possible examples of how some Mennonites continue to fight century-old battles long after they have lost all meaning.

These are the current color options for the $110,000 Mercedes S-Class which is the most expensive production sedan on the market today and presumably the least-plain: https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/class ... an#gallery

Image

You can get it in four separate shades of black: Black, Magnetite Black metallic, Ruby Black Metallic, and Obsidian Black Metallic, in addition to several shades of white, gray, and silver. Obviously car color is no longer a signifier of extravagance when it comes to cars.

By contrast, the very cheapest new car on the road (and presumably the most plain) is the Chevy Spark which comes in a variety of bright jellybean colors because they are marketed towards young people not rich people.

Image

Which of these two cars would Jesus be most comfortable in?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
RZehr

Re: The Intellectual Depth of Anabaptism

Post by RZehr »

Trick question! Neither. Clearly a Ford. :D
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Bootstrap

Re: The Intellectual Depth of Anabaptism

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:25 pm Trick question! Neither. Clearly a Ford. :D
Not a Trabbi?
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ken_sylvania

Re: The Intellectual Depth of Anabaptism

Post by ken_sylvania »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:04 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:39 pm The "classy" wealthy folks are more likely to avoid what they consider gaudy displays of wealth. It's considered to be in better taste to signal wealth with a simple suit made out of superior cloth and by a high-end tailor than to wear a flashy suit. The same principle seems to apply regarding vehicles.

The traditions held by the old order Mennonite groups are likely to come into and go out of fashion throughout the years, but it really doesn't bother most of them because they aren't basing their traditions on the current fads. I assume that you are familiar enough with automobiles to recognize that despite the color similarities, the vehicles at the Weaverland church are simpler than those at the Academy Awards.
My point is that the RELIGIOUS focus on black as a car color is really a response to the roaring 20s, a century ago, when GM first started mass producing colored cars after Dupont developed reliable paint coatings that could produce bright metallic yet colors on cars. Colored cars were marketed in the 1920s as fancy and an extravagant luxury https://www.consumerreports.org/consume ... oring-now/ and some plain churches mandated black in response to all that explosion of color. A century later, car color no longer has any relationship to the fanciness or extravagance of cars, the fanciest ones are mostly colorless black, gray, and white. But you still have some plain churches focused on car color as a signifier of "plainness" 50 years after the concept lost meaning. This is just one of many possible examples of how some Mennonites continue to fight century-old battles long after they have lost all meaning.

These are the current color options for the $110,000 Mercedes S-Class which is the most expensive production sedan on the market today and presumably the least-plain: https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/class ... an#gallery

Image

You can get it in four separate shades of black: Black, Magnetite Black metallic, Ruby Black Metallic, and Obsidian Black Metallic, in addition to several shades of white, gray, and silver. Obviously car color is no longer a signifier of extravagance when it comes to cars.

By contrast, the very cheapest new car on the road (and presumably the most plain) is the Chevy Spark which comes in a variety of bright jellybean colors because they are marketed towards young people not rich people.

Image

Which of these two cars would Jesus be most comfortable in?
The relationship between color and extravagance isn't exactly the same, but it's not totally gone. Car color still makes a statement.
I tend to picture Jesus as being at least average height, so I would guess if he was here in person he would find the Mercedes somewhat more comfortable. He didn't seem to mind having his feet anointed with expensive ointment. I doubt he would own either of the two vehicles you had pictured.
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KrisKramer
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:25 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Affiliation: Raised Conserv. Menn

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by KrisKramer »

Exactly

Plus talking on car color.....

It limits when buying a good used car when you need to either only buy a black one or add money to paint it.

Finding a cheap used car that will last and then Needing to paint a car just because it happens to be blue is not a good steward of money.
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temporal1

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by temporal1 »

ken_sylvania:
The relationship between color and extravagance isn't exactly the same, but it's not totally gone.
Car color still makes a statement.
I tend to picture Jesus as being at least average height, so I would guess if he was here in person he would find the Mercedes somewhat more comfortable. He didn't seem to mind having his feet anointed with expensive ointment.
I doubt he would own either of the two vehicles you had pictured.

Jesus would not have much of a chance in today’s world.
His mother would have been strongly counseled to abort, her parents uninformed, at taxpayer expense. Adults promoting abortion would counsel and enable, her parents and others deemed legal enemies of her best interests.

What kind of fallen world is it wherein the state encourages+enables children, teens, dependents, to seriously lie to their (tax paying) parents? About destroying their grandchildren. It does not seem possible.

Many who vote for that ^^ get all carried away by others’ choices of car color.
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temporal1

“Things that are lost” .. Re: Bunny Trails

Post by temporal1 »

Ken wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 12:01 am
Josh wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 9:23 pm In the thread, a wealthy urbanite lectures someone who actually lives in rural Illinois, “ACKSHULLY this is how things really work”, apparently utterly ignorant of Chicago machine politics.
Josh:
Perhaps you can explain how life in Southern Illinois is dramatically different from life across the state line in Southern Indiana because of Chicago "machine politics" and because Illinois has Democratic governors and senators and state legislature while they are all Republicans in Indiana. Illinois is obviously a blue state and Indiana is obviously a red state. So rural life must be dramatically different right?

Are the tax rates dramatically different? Let's see:

Illinois has a flat income tax of 4.95% with no local income tax. https://smartasset.com/taxes/illinois-tax-calculator
Indiana has a flat income tax of $3.23% but average local income taxes of 1.75% for a total income tax of 4.98% https://smartasset.com/taxes/indiana-tax-calculator essentially identical.

Illinois has a sales tax of 6.25% and Indiana has a sales tax of 7% so a bit lower in Illinois. Localities in IL can impose additional sales tax but many rural ones do not. So higher sales taxes in say Chicago do not affect southern IL.

Comparing two adjacent counties in southern Illinois and Indiana. Lawrence County in southern Illinois has a property tax rate of 1.33% and adjacent Knox County in Indiana has a property tax rate of 0.79% so edge to Indiana there. But property taxes are entirely local so are paying for local schools, fire, roads, etc. and nothing under the control of the state. These are all local taxes voted on my local citizens not Chicago. And both states have homestead exemptions, ag exemptions, and senior citizen exemptions so in the end the difference is pretty marginal.

Are laws and regulations different between the two states? Are Illinois farmers under the oppressive yoke of state regulations while Indiana farmers are not? Just how is Chicago "machine politics" affecting rural life in Southern Illinois? Other than subsidizing it. I'm really curious.

The most frequent complaints in the years of Illinois’ decline have been about property taxes and fuel taxes. Fuel taxes painfully increased in Jan 2021. Indiana is reported to be consistently better on these things. Illinois continues to lose business, which means jobs, which means people. Indiana has a property tax cap, i’m not sure how it works. they like it.
Indiana property tax caps limit the amount of property taxes to 1% of property values for homesteads (owner-occupied), 2% for other residential property and farmland, and 3% for all other property. The caps provide a dual benefit to taxpayers. All taxpayers benefit from the predictability the caps provide.
https://boonecounty.in.gov › Auditor
Property Tax Caps - Boone County, Indiana
i encourage my family to move to Indianapolis/area. great airport there.

Property taxes
https://smartasset.com/taxes/illinois-p ... calculator

https://www.chicagotribune.com/real-est ... story.html

2020 / Gasoline taxes, even worse in 2021
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois ... tax-rates/

College students
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois ... ince-2000/

Downstate Illinois does not want to be on the dole. Not even ‘way downstate. It’s a form of servitude. Not healthy.

Last but not least, Robert’s latest move was to S Indiana, not S Illinois. :P
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temporal1

Re: Bunny Trails

Post by temporal1 »

6.25 percent
Illinois' sales tax rate is 6.25 percent on general merchandise and 1 percent on qualifying foods, drugs, and medical appliances.
:arrow: The tax rate may be higher in some areas because some local jurisdictions are allowed to impose their own taxes.

https://www2.illinois.gov › pages
What is the sales tax rate in Illinois? - Questions and Answers - Illinois.gov

my county adds 1.25% to the state’s 6.25% = 7.5%

These local variations are real costs that do not show up in quick general searches.

- - - - -

When interested in city stats, i often refer to this website:

Example: Seattle
https://www.city-data.com/city/Seattle-Washington.html

Near the bottom of the page there is a cost of living calculator i find helpful.
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temporal1

Re: Why do Christians love everyone?

Post by temporal1 »

ohio jones wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:08 pm
Franklin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:32 pm I appreciate the responses but I remain unconvinced.
Josh wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:12 pm Of course, Christians don't actually "love everyone".
Of course, but even thinking that there is some obligation in this direction has practical implications that I consider harmful. Non-violence is one example. More generally if people feel an obligation toward cockroaches, then there will be more cockroaches and this isn't a good thing. This is how I view Christian support for most of humanity.
I could agree with this, except that the goal of non-violent love is not coexistence, it is transformation. If Christian love toward cockroaches could set them on a path to becoming (for example) chickens, there would be fewer cockroaches and this would be a good thing. The point of loving enemies is that they may not remain enemies but become friends, and by the grace of God, even brothers.
Soloist wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:03 pm
haithabu wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:38 pm I think you misunderstand Jesus’ exchange with the Canaanite woman.

She had approached him under false pretences, calling him “son of David” as if she also were a Jew. And why? - because she herself believed that he would not help her on any other terms. So when Jesus answered that it was not fit to give the children’s bread to the dogs he was repeating her belief back to her and at the same time calling her on her pretence.

I believe that Jesus was also led by the Spirit to challenge her in that way specifically to elicit her statement of faith. The Messiah has no need to ration his powers but there is enough for the house of Israel and all others besides for “God does not give the Spirit by measure”. (John 3:34)

This is a beautiful example of how God honours the importunity of faith.
I don't think she was being false, I think she recognized Jesus as the Messiah from the beginning. He was if anything testing her faith and willingness to humble herself. Which she did, she called herself a dog basically. Why would she be praised at the end for her faith if she was being deceptive or if she didn't really believe.
She starts out by calling him Kurios and son of David. This is a pretty clear link to prophecies of the old testament. Her saying this was probably not implying she was ethnically Jewish, especially as she was not in Israel's territory. She was persistent as well, as we are told to using the example of the unrighteous judge or the man asking for bread at night.
haithabu wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:52 pm The Canaanite woman clearly had faith in Jesus’ powers as the Messiah but I doubt that she had faith that the Messiah would be interested in helping her as a Gentile until he provoked it in her. But that’s reading between the lines. It doesn’t say so in the text though to me that reading makes the most internal sense in understanding their encounter.

As to what Jesus was doing in Tyre, according to Josephus there was a Jewish community there, and it is apparent from Jesus’ first comment that he was ministering specifically to the Jews when the woman approached him.

Josephus additionally tells us that the Tyreans were bitter enemies of the Jewish community so the woman’s approach to Jesus was crossing a very hard line of division which may have entailed risk to her from both sides. Such was her desperation.

In these fraught circumstances Jesus’ praise of the woman’s faith would have been a lot more impactful to the listeners than we would think from a casual reading. I wonder if this, the only recorded act of Jesus from his Tyrean excursion was the God appointment for which the Spirit led him there in the first place?

i love .. that haithabu has returned. and appleman.

i first crossed paths with death when i was 10. my grandfather’s sudden death. no time to say goodbye.
a bittersweet part is how frequently loved ones are often brought back together, if only temporarily.
eventually, i realized, funerals are for the living. sometimes they do great good for the living. the bereaved.
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temporal1

Hegelian dialectic .. Re: Bunny Trails

Post by temporal1 »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:10 am an aside:
.. this has a lot more to do with sweeping sexual abuse under the rug ..

one of the most bizarre and regrettable outcomes i witnessed in the 1990’s Catholic priest abuse scandals was .. the remarkable boost it gave to the homosexual bloc, and other agenda, such as women in ministry, in churches.

sin does not stay confined. on this there has been untold damage. so many alienated from their churches over all these things.

in this case, the statistics are not in debate, church membership and attendance are down. many flounder, believing they did not leave their churches nearly as much as their churches left them. :-|

some have visited this forum, esp MD, because of it.

1. What i anticipated would happen in response to the 1990’s Catholic priest abuse scandal:
i expected this would be a “seminole moment” in the Catholic Church (which i knew LITTLE about).
i expected MANY would be repulsed and would leave. i expected MANY would migrate to the Lutheran church, because of so many similarities.

(In the small town we lived in, the Lutheran church was near the Catholic Church, the pastor and priest were good friends, worked together on various community projects, intermarriages were frequent and accepted.) It was a small town with people of many faiths, racially integrated.

2. What i witnessed:
Lots of shocking, repulsive scandal made public.
Many left churches, many left the Catholic Church. But, where did they land?? Many landed no where.
Catholics are taught Protestants are bad. Protestants are taught Catholics are bad. Anabaptists, ditto.

At about the same time, many Protestant churches made the shift to embrace homosexuality, women in ministry, and all that goes with all of that. Even abortion has become .. ? These things are unacceptable to many, Catholic and Protestant. So, lots of floundering. Lots of people reporting “no religion.”

Those that remained had hearts that were hurt, sad. Sad that others left, but understanding.

Sin has a ripple effect that can go on+on. It can continue beyond anyone’s memory of “why?”
Evil loves it.

Of course sexual predators are found everywhere, in churches and in the secular world, their MO is very much the same, regardless.
This 1990’s scandal was of epic proportions. It might have been a “seminole moment” for Christianity. Sin effectively prevented it.

So, we muddle along. One day at a time.

This is my personal view. No sources. No charts+graphs. Just how it appears to me. As i’ve grieved about it.
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