Bunny Trails

[temporal1]

there's nothing that says you have to click on and open the bunny trails thread.
no one is holding a gun to your head demanding you read it.


of course, i understand the concept of, "if i see it, i have to read it." cause i have that problem with posters that i do not appreciate their postings. i purpose not to read, but i still cave and end up reading after all.

with you being a mod, reading pretty much goes with the territory.

i avoid certain topics, etc., but, i don’t want to be a purist about it. there are always surprises, intended or not.
sometimes i’ve regretted not opening a topic.

everyone has to decide, and can decide, what they can, or what they choose to view.

this forum has outlived many various attempts. admin+mods must be doing something right.
warts+all, it continues to attract - imperfect folks Jesus is interested in. Mennonites and others.
(esp others interested in Mennonites.) that’s pretty interesting to me.

[temporal1]

The fact they post Facebook memes means they have indeed abandoned plain Anabaptism; instead, they’ve embraced the weird kind of rural-pride Americana lifestyle and culture, which seems to revolve around loyalty to large corporate brands like John Deere or Ford (which, ironically, come from the urban big cities) and pairs with a choice of occupations entirely dependent on scaled-up urban overcrowding, such as working in construction (commuting to the big cities) or living off of agricultural subsidies.

Shorter Josh:
Anabaptists (TM) only post plain text on the Internet and cultivate small organic gardens with hand tools.

mike - quite witty.

Josh -
i’m a bit puzzled. you sometimes write about the need for (CMs/CAs?) to go into urban areas, esp the most troubled places, for church plants and missions. are you saying they go for the wrong reasons? - or that right reasons are lost due to material temptations? - or other?

aside from that, it doesn’t resonate well to criticize+generalize about “others” conveniently not present on a public forum.
(this is not addressed to you.) when this is done it naturally causes unease about what else might be said (behind peoples’ backs) in other settings. it’s a bad habit.

old quote:
“if you can’t say anything nice, be quiet.”

there is a difference between addressing others directly in honest question or debate, even criticism, versus irresponsible criticizing behind backs. i believe you know the difference. i believe this forum is pretty good about discouraging (gossip).

[Ken]

The fact they post Facebook memes means they have indeed abandoned plain Anabaptism; instead, they’ve embraced the weird kind of rural-pride Americana lifestyle and culture, which seems to revolve around loyalty to large corporate brands like John Deere or Ford (which, ironically, come from the urban big cities) and pairs with a choice of occupations entirely dependent on scaled-up urban overcrowding, such as working in construction (commuting to the big cities) or living off of agricultural subsidies.

Shorter Josh: Anabaptists (TM) only post plain text on the Internet and cultivate small organic gardens with hand tools

They also sell Plexus.

I had to google "Plexus" Is that the new Amyway? It it popular in plain communities? I don't know how these MLM schemes survive in this day and age with Amazon and other online retailers making one-click shopping so easy.

[Bootstrap]

I think that the same holds true for what I'll refer to as "neo-anabaptism" - a reinterpretation of history to fit concepts that are really not consistent with positions held by the early 'anabaptists' - called the 'baptism-minded' in the Dutch setting.

If we aren't thinking, this is what we all do - we think other people are just like us, that we are very much like our Christian heroes of the past. But our culture, language, and living situation is quite different from theirs. For instance, intellectual depth for them had nothing to do with modern science or computing.

Want to wear simple peasant clothes? A Swiss peasant of the time might dress like this, not like modern plain Mennonites. (Caveat: this is based on a Google search, I am not sure it is accurate, but I suspect it's a lot closer to this than anything you could buy from Gohn Brothers).



They wore clothing like the clothing their neighbors wore, staying away from the expensive clothing that some wore to show that they had high status. And at the time, clothing was a huge status marker. The way they talked about relationships and their thoughts and feelings was also strongly influenced by the time and place they were living.

To really understand the early Anabaptists, we need to understand their life setting and compare them to others living at the same time. And to understand their intellectual life, it's helpful to look at their exchanges with other Christians of the same time and place.

How was Conrad Grebel different before and after his conversion? What process led up to that change? After conversion, how was he different from others he was formerly associated with? How was their thinking different from his? What distinguished the people who chose to become Anabaptist and the people who did not?

Looking back at that, how are we different from other Christians around us, and why? What is the story of how we got there?

[steve-in-kville]

I had to google "Plexus" Is that the new Amyway? It it popular in plain communities? I don't know how these MLM schemes survive in this day and age with Amazon and other online retailers making one-click shopping so easy.

Its pretty big among the circles we still rub shoulders with. My wife's youngest sister is selling CBD products now.

[Ken]

I think that the same holds true for what I'll refer to as "neo-anabaptism" - a reinterpretation of history to fit concepts that are really not consistent with positions held by the early 'anabaptists' - called the 'baptism-minded' in the Dutch setting.

If we aren't thinking, this is what we all do - we think other people are just like us, that we are very much like our Christian heroes of the past. But our culture, language, and living situation is quite different from theirs. For instance, intellectual depth for them had nothing to do with modern science or computing.

Want to wear simple peasant clothes? A Swiss peasant of the time might dress like this, not like modern plain Mennonites. (Caveat: this is based on a Google search, I am not sure it is accurate, but I suspect it's a lot closer to this than anything you could buy from Gohn Brothers).



They wore clothing like the clothing their neighbors wore, staying away from the expensive clothing that some wore to show that they had high status. And at the time, clothing was a huge status marker. The way they talked about relationships and their thoughts and feelings was also strongly influenced by the time and place they were living.

To really understand the early Anabaptists, we need to understand their life setting and compare them to others living at the same time. And to understand their intellectual life, it's helpful to look at their exchanges with other Christians of the same time and place.

How was Conrad Grebel different before and after his conversion? What process led up to that change? After conversion, how was he different from others he was formerly associated with? How was their thinking different from his? What distinguished the people who chose to become Anabaptist and the people who did not?

Looking back at that, how are we different from other Christians around us, and why? What is the story of how we got there?

I think that's an important point.

Every generation reacts to different issues and trends in both Christianity and the world at large.

Before the industrial revolution, clothing was a significant expense and social marker. Today, not so much at all. Cheap clothing from SE Asian textile mills is ubiquitous and practically disposable. Jeff Bezos could dress at Wal-Mart or Target and few would even notice.

In Reformation Europe, institutional Catholicism was the dominant religion. In 21st Century America it is evangelical Christianity. Both had their courtiers and seekers of power. But they are very different.

In 16th Century Europe there were few small independent farmers. Most peasants were serfs, tied to the land via feudal arrangements and enterprising individuals seeking independence and freedom tended to be craftsmen and merchants. In 19th Century America, land was abundant and farming was the path to independence while trades often tied you to a large corporation like a railroad or factory or chain store. The rural and agricultural nature of Anabaptist communities in North America is largely a consequence of geography and circumstance. My great grandfather sought land to farm in Oregon to escape a career as a shop mechanic and craftsman with the Southern Pacific railroad, which would have been the opposite trajectory of many in the 16th century seeking to escape feudalism.

One of the characteristics of plain Anabaptists in the modern era is how much they continue to fight yesterday's battles. Black cars? The fancier and more expensive the car, the more likely it will only come in black, white, and colorless shades of gray and silver. The high-end Mercedes sedans don't even come in colors. Visit any high-end event for the wealthy and the valet parking lot will be full of black luxury SUVs. Beards without mustaches is a reaction to 19th Century military mustache styles that went out of fashion over 100 years ago.

[steve-in-kville]

One of the characteristics of plain Anabaptists in the modern era is how much they continue to fight yesterday's battles. Black cars? The fancier and more expensive the car, the more likely it will only come in black, white, and colorless shades of gray and silver. The high-end Mercedes sedans don't even come in colors. Visit any high-end event for the wealthy and the valet parking lot will be full of black luxury SUVs.

I honestly never made that observation before... but I think you're right.

[Ken]

One of the characteristics of plain Anabaptists in the modern era is how much they continue to fight yesterday's battles. Black cars? The fancier and more expensive the car, the more likely it will only come in black, white, and colorless shades of gray and silver. The high-end Mercedes sedans don't even come in colors. Visit any high-end event for the wealthy and the valet parking lot will be full of black luxury SUVs.

I honestly never made that observation before... but I think you're right.

Valet parking lots for the 2020 Academy Awards



And the 2020 Golden Globes red carpet



Versus Weaverland Mennonites at church

[Neto]

They wore clothing like the clothing their neighbors wore, staying away from the expensive clothing that some wore to show that they had high status. And at the time, clothing was a huge status marker.

I would say that this is still typical of many of the poorer class in Brazil. We were often totally amazed at how the people who lived in wood squatter shacks along a dusty (in dry season) dirt road could come out of their homes in the whitest white clothing you could imagine. Some how they managed it, even thought they washed their clothes in the creek that ran through at the bottom of the gully their "cliff-hanger" house was perched above (sometimes precariously).
But some of the status symbols were also taken over by the TV antenna sticking through the thatch roof, or the motorcycle sitting out front. This is also seen in inner city "slums", where a perhaps somewhat older luxury car sits in front of a run down house. The car becomes part of the 'outfit" - the clothing.

[ken_sylvania]

One of the characteristics of plain Anabaptists in the modern era is how much they continue to fight yesterday's battles. Black cars? The fancier and more expensive the car, the more likely it will only come in black, white, and colorless shades of gray and silver. The high-end Mercedes sedans don't even come in colors. Visit any high-end event for the wealthy and the valet parking lot will be full of black luxury SUVs.

I honestly never made that observation before... but I think you're right.

Valet parking lots for the 2020 Academy Awards



And the 2020 Golden Globes red carpet



Versus Weaverland Mennonites at church

I take it you haven't seen many McLarens, Bugattis, and Ferraris? Single color black isn't exactly the most common color among the most expensive of expensive cars.
The "classy" wealthy folks are more likely to avoid what they consider gaudy displays of wealth. It's considered to be in better taste to signal wealth with a simple suit made out of superior cloth and by a high-end tailor than to wear a flashy suit. The same principle seems to apply regarding vehicles.

The traditions held by the old order Mennonite groups are likely to come into and go out of fashion throughout the years, but it really doesn't bother most of them because they aren't basing their traditions on the current fads. I assume that you are familiar enough with automobiles to recognize that despite the color similarities, the vehicles at the Weaverland church are simpler than those at the Academy Awards.