The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[ken_sylvania]

No, what I'm saying is that I think this wedding cake fight largely performative culture war stuff that is peripheral to actual Christianity. Does a car salesman refuse to complete the sale if he realizes that he is selling to a gay couple? Does a real estate agent refuse to sell to a gay couple because he will be aiding and abetting their living in a state of sin? Does a plumber who arrives at a house to make a repair refuse to do so and walk away when he discovers that a gay couple lives there? For fear of being tainted by the gay or being seen to endorse their lifestyle with his labor? Does a flour wholesaler refuse to deliver to bakeries that do bake cakes for gay weddings for fear that his flour will wind up being used in a gay wedding cake? Where does it end?

Is it REALLY the case that the only business transaction that God forbids us to conduct with gay couples is the sale of a wedding cake? But that every other type of business transaction is perfectly OK? I don't buy it. I don't think it is biblical or even logical. Can you provide a list of business transactions that are permissible to conduct with a gay couple and those that are not?

If you would really like to understand how some of us conservatives view these issues, I would suggest that respectful dialog would be more helpful than pejorative accusations. I don't find it particularly enjoyable to discuss differences of opinion with people whose statements drip with contempt for my position. Would you be willing to consider that some of us honestly believe that it would be wrong for us to decorate a cake specifically to celebrate an occasion that we understand to be abominable in God's sight? And that this belief has nothing to do with a fear of being "contaminated" or "tainted" by association with such persons? And nothing to do with a hatred for sch persons? And nothing to do with "being seen to endorse" but rather is motivated by a desire to actually not endorse the event?

Much as we might wish it would be, the line between right and wrong is not always easy to discern. Almost any position that one might take in standing for truth can be made to look ridiculous. Sincere, God-loving, God-following people sometimes disagree on which principles of right and wrong apply most strongly to any given situation. Some people stress love the most strongly, others stress non-participation in the sins of those about us.

I think you would agree that I have never come anywhere close to suggesting that the sale of a wedding cake to a gay couple is the only business transaction that God forbids. You say you don't buy that idea - well, let me be perfectly clear that I don't have that idea available to try to sell to you.

As a matter of fact, there are a variety of other services that I wouldn't feel right about supplying. Then there are certain services that I might not necessarily feel are problematic but that other sincere Christians might feel would be inappropriate. As to supplying a list of what is permissible and what is not - there are many variables that come into these situations that affect each case. I have no interest in trying to judge others in how they handle these matters, especially those outside our local church fellowship.

Do you really see no difference whatsoever in decorating a cake specifically for a gay wedding and selling a box of pre-made cookies? The accusation of a fear of contamination might make more sense if people were simply refusing to do any business with others based on their sinful lifestyle, but I'm not aware of such things happening.

In answer to a previous question - yes, there are many CMs who would refuse to rent a residence to a couple in a D&R relationship, for reasons of conscience. Most of these same people, however, would have no problem renting a commercial property to them for a business, etc not closely related to their adulterous relationship. If I was operating a bakery, I would gladly sell a gay couple, or a D&R couple, a birthday cake, or a party cake. But I wouldn't sell a straight couple a cake decorated with expressions of praise to an idol, or a Halloween cake, or a cake decorated with Santa Clause.

I don't think it is even the marriage part that people object to so much as the sex. If two close friends simply wanted to enter into a legal partnership like a civil marriage for the purpose of inheritance, tax benefits, medical power of attorney, joint ownership of property, and all the other legal rights associated with marriage but they were straight and celibate. Then I don't think very many people would even object or care. I think it's the gay sex part not the civil marriage part that people tend to have a religious problem with.

I think you're partly right here, but also partly wrong. To your point, it is the unnatural physical relationship part of gay marriage that is specifically called out in God's word as being abhorrent and sinful. However, marriage, in God's design, includes physical, emotional, and legal aspects. A celibate marriage, if there is such a thing, is clearly not God's design for marriage. The push to tolerate, recognize and celebrate gay marriage is inseparable from the desire for the entirety of these relationships (physical, emotional, and legal) to be recognized and accepted as normal and morally right. Many of us CMs see no practical difference between a celebration of two unmarried people moving in together as friends-with-benefits, a D&R wedding, or a gay wedding. We wouldn't want to support any of them. I understand that among many in the evangelical world some of these may be considered less abominable than others, but many of us don't see much difference.

[ken_sylvania]

The baker was specifically asked to decorate the cake with a specific message.

So in your opinion a homosexual person should be allowed to force me to write out a specific message, contrary to my religious beliefs? Got it.

So God is OK with it if you sell a generic wedding cake to a gay couple. He just objects if you custom decorate it?

I'm always intrigued by these lines that people draw in the sand.

Mocking people who take a stand for what they believe to be right is about as old as humanity.

[Ken]

The baker was specifically asked to decorate the cake with a specific message.

So in your opinion a homosexual person should be allowed to force me to write out a specific message, contrary to my religious beliefs? Got it.

So God is OK with it if you sell a generic wedding cake to a gay couple. He just objects if you custom decorate it?

I'm always intrigued by these lines that people draw in the sand.

Mocking people who take a stand for what they believe to be right is about as old as humanity.

If we are talking about Christianity then the question is about what God wants us to do. What are his commands and wishes? How are we to relate to gay people in a Christian way?

Are we to shun them as if they were "untouchables?"
Are we to do ordinary business with them but not marriage-related business?
Are we to do marriage-related business but not custom-designed marriage related business?
Are we to do custom-designed marriage related business, but not custom-designed marriage related business that contains a written message?

What is the Christian way to relate to gay people? It's a serious question. My understanding of the answer is clearly different from yours.

You are the one who is saying there is a line to be drawn. I think it is entirely fair to ask exactly where that line should be placed and why.

[ken_sylvania]

So God is OK with it if you sell a generic wedding cake to a gay couple. He just objects if you custom decorate it?

I'm always intrigued by these lines that people draw in the sand.

Mocking people who take a stand for what they believe to be right is about as old as humanity.

If we are talking about Christianity then the question is about what God wants us to do. What are his commands and wishes? How are we to relate to gay people in a Christian way?

Are we to shun them as if they were "untouchables?"
Are we to do ordinary business with them but not marriage-related business?
Are we to do marriage-related business but not custom-designed marriage related business?
Are we to do custom-designed marriage related business, but not custom-designed marriage related business that contains a written message?

What is the Christian way to relate to gay people? It's a serious question. My understanding of the answer is clearly different from yours.

You are the one who is saying there is a line to be drawn. I think it is entirely fair to ask exactly where that line should be placed and why.

We should not shun them as if they are "untouchables."

We should deal with them respectfully as we would any other person.

We should avoid making statements and taking actions that would condone their sinful relationship as normal.

Paul wrote that it's not necessary to inquire about whether meat was offered to idols, but that if someone volunteers that information that we should then abstain. I think the same principle applies here. If I sell wedding cards, I wouldn't quiz each of my customers about whether the card they are buying is for a straight couple, a gay couple, or a D&R couple. I would not stock cards with a message tailored to a D&R wedding or to a same gender wedding. If a customer asked me to help them select a card with a message appropriate for a same gender wedding I would respectfully decline. I don't think, though, that I would have a problem selling them a card if they picked it out themselves.

I think it comes down to how close and direct is the link between our action and the sin. And that applies to other areas of life as well. I don't think we should be selling products directly to the military or to vendors who we know are dealing mainly with the military, but I wouldn't feel any particular qualms about selling to a wholesaler where my product is conglomerated with that from a thousand other producers even if I knew that the military accounted for 20% of that wholesaler's product sales. Just don't ask me what percentage is acceptable. I know I wouldn't be comfortable selling to a wholesaler if my product was going into a pot of which 95% went to the military. For me there isn't a bright line on this.

You are the one who is saying there is a line to be drawn. I think it is entirely fair to ask exactly where that line should be placed and why.

It is fair to ask where the line should be drawn and why, provided it is done in a respectful manner.

Do you agree that there is a line to be drawn? For instance, if you were a cake decorator would you be willing to make and sell a cake celebrating a marriage between a 60 year old man and a 13 year old girl? Would you be willing to provide the wedding venue for such a wedding? Would you be willing to rent them a bridal suite for the first night?

Would you be willing decorate a cake featuring a declaration of loyalty to Lucifer?

Would you be willing to decorate a cake with a confederate battle flag and a call to rebellion against the Federal government?

[RZehr]

No, what I'm saying is that I think this wedding cake fight largely performative culture war stuff that is peripheral to actual Christianity. Does a car salesman refuse to complete the sale if he realizes that he is selling to a gay couple? Does a real estate agent refuse to sell to a gay couple because he will be aiding and abetting their living in a state of sin? Does a plumber who arrives at a house to make a repair refuse to do so and walk away when he discovers that a gay couple lives there? For fear of being tainted by the gay or being seen to endorse their lifestyle with his labor? Does a flour wholesaler refuse to deliver to bakeries that do bake cakes for gay weddings for fear that his flour will wind up being used in a gay wedding cake? Where does it end?

Is it REALLY the case that the only business transaction that God forbids us to conduct with gay couples is the sale of a wedding cake? But that every other type of business transaction is perfectly OK? I don't buy it. I don't think it is biblical or even logical. Can you provide a list of business transactions that are permissible to conduct with a gay couple and those that are not?

I don't think it is even the marriage part that people object to so much as the sex. If two close friends simply wanted to enter into a legal partnership like a civil marriage for the purpose of inheritance, tax benefits, medical power of attorney, joint ownership of property, and all the other legal rights associated with marriage but they were straight and celibate. Then I don't think very many people would even object or care. I think it's the gay sex part not the civil marriage part that people tend to have a religious problem with.

But yes, if a particular business finds that their convictions compel them to discriminate against a certain class of customers who nevertheless pay the taxes that support that business. Then I would suggest that they should probably find another line of business.

I find this insulting. “Largely performative”? Whatever. At minimum this clearly reveals the depth of your ignorance on this matter so far as conservative Mennonite beliefs are concerned. I’d write more, but it’s late and I have to go. Besides, ken_sylvania wrote in his last two posts pretty much exactly what I would say. Particularly regarding military and Lucifer.
Our contractors don’t build bars. Should they be compelled to do so?

[Ken]

Mocking people who take a stand for what they believe to be right is about as old as humanity.

If we are talking about Christianity then the question is about what God wants us to do. What are his commands and wishes? How are we to relate to gay people in a Christian way?

Are we to shun them as if they were "untouchables?"
Are we to do ordinary business with them but not marriage-related business?
Are we to do marriage-related business but not custom-designed marriage related business?
Are we to do custom-designed marriage related business, but not custom-designed marriage related business that contains a written message?

What is the Christian way to relate to gay people? It's a serious question. My understanding of the answer is clearly different from yours.

You are the one who is saying there is a line to be drawn. I think it is entirely fair to ask exactly where that line should be placed and why.

We should not shun them as if they are "untouchables."

We should deal with them respectfully as we would any other person.

We should avoid making statements and taking actions that would condone their sinful relationship as normal.

Paul wrote that it's not necessary to inquire about whether meat was offered to idols, but that if someone volunteers that information that we should then abstain. I think the same principle applies here. If I sell wedding cards, I wouldn't quiz each of my customers about whether the card they are buying is for a straight couple, a gay couple, or a D&R couple. I would not stock cards with a message tailored to a D&R wedding or to a same gender wedding. If a customer asked me to help them select a card with a message appropriate for a same gender wedding I would respectfully decline. I don't think, though, that I would have a problem selling them a card if they picked it out themselves.

I think it comes down to how close and direct is the link between our action and the sin. And that applies to other areas of life as well. I don't think we should be selling products directly to the military or to vendors who we know are dealing mainly with the military, but I wouldn't feel any particular qualms about selling to a wholesaler where my product is conglomerated with that from a thousand other producers even if I knew that the military accounted for 20% of that wholesaler's product sales. Just don't ask me what percentage is acceptable. I know I wouldn't be comfortable selling to a wholesaler if my product was going into a pot of which 95% went to the military. For me there isn't a bright line on this.

You are the one who is saying there is a line to be drawn. I think it is entirely fair to ask exactly where that line should be placed and why.

It is fair to ask where the line should be drawn and why, provided it is done in a respectful manner.

Do you agree that there is a line to be drawn? For instance, if you were a cake decorator would you be willing to make and sell a cake celebrating a marriage between a 60 year old man and a 13 year old girl? Would you be willing to provide the wedding venue for such a wedding? Would you be willing to rent them a bridal suite for the first night?

Would you be willing decorate a cake featuring a declaration of loyalty to Lucifer?

Would you be willing to decorate a cake with a confederate battle flag and a call to rebellion against the Federal government?

To answer your questions....

1. If I was a wedding cake baker who disapproved of gay marriage on religious grounds and a gay couple came into my shop asking for a cake. I would tell them that "I disapprove of gay marriage on religious grounds but I understand that you now have a legal right to marry under the Constitution. And that state law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. So I will reluctantly do my best to accommodate you on the understanding that this does not mean I approve. Is that fair?"

2. If a 60 year old man came into my shop with a 13 year old girl for a wedding cake I would tell him. "Sir, what you are doing is statutory rape and child molestation" and then I would call the police and report them. State law does not protect rapists or pedophiles so I would be on solid ground.

3. If someone came into my shop asking for a cake honoring Lucifer, I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not devil cakes. We don't have any Lucifer designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, devil worshipers are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.

4. If someone came into my shop asking for a confederate insurrection flag cake I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not insurrection cakes. The confederate flag is not one of our standard designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, insurrectionists and racists are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.

[Ken]

No, what I'm saying is that I think this wedding cake fight largely performative culture war stuff that is peripheral to actual Christianity. Does a car salesman refuse to complete the sale if he realizes that he is selling to a gay couple? Does a real estate agent refuse to sell to a gay couple because he will be aiding and abetting their living in a state of sin? Does a plumber who arrives at a house to make a repair refuse to do so and walk away when he discovers that a gay couple lives there? For fear of being tainted by the gay or being seen to endorse their lifestyle with his labor? Does a flour wholesaler refuse to deliver to bakeries that do bake cakes for gay weddings for fear that his flour will wind up being used in a gay wedding cake? Where does it end?

Is it REALLY the case that the only business transaction that God forbids us to conduct with gay couples is the sale of a wedding cake? But that every other type of business transaction is perfectly OK? I don't buy it. I don't think it is biblical or even logical. Can you provide a list of business transactions that are permissible to conduct with a gay couple and those that are not?

I don't think it is even the marriage part that people object to so much as the sex. If two close friends simply wanted to enter into a legal partnership like a civil marriage for the purpose of inheritance, tax benefits, medical power of attorney, joint ownership of property, and all the other legal rights associated with marriage but they were straight and celibate. Then I don't think very many people would even object or care. I think it's the gay sex part not the civil marriage part that people tend to have a religious problem with.

But yes, if a particular business finds that their convictions compel them to discriminate against a certain class of customers who nevertheless pay the taxes that support that business. Then I would suggest that they should probably find another line of business.

I find this insulting. “Largely performative”? Whatever. At minimum this clearly reveals the depth of your ignorance on this matter so far as conservative Mennonite beliefs are concerned. I’d write more, but it’s late and I have to go. Besides, ken_sylvania wrote in his last two posts pretty much exactly what I would say. Particularly regarding military and Lucifer.
Our contractors don’t build bars. Should they be compelled to do so?

If you bid on a construction job and signed a contract to build a bar for a customer then I think you would be legally obligated to finish the job. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any law that says you need to bid on a job that disagree with. Whether it be a bar or a house built on a protected wetland or a gunshop or anything else. On the other hand, if you were a subcontractor for a general contractor building a subdivision I don't think you would have legal grounds to say. "I'm only going to install sheetrock in the houses that you are selling to straight couples. I refuse to work on any house that you are selling to a gay couple because I disapprove of gay marriage. Then you would be on shaky legal ground and likely in violation of your contract. And you may find that your contracting business suffers.

I see people doing things that I disagree with nearly every day. On religious grounds, moral grounds, ethical grounds, public health and sanitation grounds, environmental grounds, and so forth. I mainly treat them with respect and courtesy regardless because I know that in a diverse society it isn't my place to go around correcting everyone else's mistakes and errors. And I expect the same courtesy in return.

[Grace]

No, what I'm saying is that I think this wedding cake fight largely performative culture war stuff that is peripheral to actual Christianity. Does a car salesman refuse to complete the sale if he realizes that he is selling to a gay couple? Does a real estate agent refuse to sell to a gay couple because he will be aiding and abetting their living in a state of sin? Does a plumber who arrives at a house to make a repair refuse to do so and walk away when he discovers that a gay couple lives there? For fear of being tainted by the gay or being seen to endorse their lifestyle with his labor? Does a flour wholesaler refuse to deliver to bakeries that do bake cakes for gay weddings for fear that his flour will wind up being used in a gay wedding cake? Where does it end?

Is it REALLY the case that the only business transaction that God forbids us to conduct with gay couples is the sale of a wedding cake? But that every other type of business transaction is perfectly OK? I don't buy it. I don't think it is biblical or even logical. Can you provide a list of business transactions that are permissible to conduct with a gay couple and those that are not?

Back in 2006, Elane Hugenin, a Christian photographer in Albuquerque, New Mexico was asked by lesbian Vanessa Willock, to photograph her gay commitment ceremony. Hugenin, respectfully declined. Later Hugenin explained in court that she was not opposed to photographing gay or lesbian clients, but that photographing a ceremony/wedding was engaging and participating in a ceremony celebrating a same sex union and it conflicted with her religious beliefs.

Willock found another photographer, but took the case to the New Mexico Human Rights Commission and the commission ruled against Hugenin forcing her to pay thousands of dollars in fines.

In the case of photographing a wedding, the photographer is asked to engage and participate in an event. There is a big difference between selling a car, selling real estate, repairing plumbing, selling flour, etc. None of them are asking a person to participate in an event that violates their religious conscience.

As for the attacks on Christians for refusing to engage in a gay weddings by not baking a cake, begs the question, why are just Christians targeted? Muslims also refuse to engage in gay weddings by not baking cakes

But yes, if a particular business finds that their convictions compel them to discriminate against a certain class of customers who nevertheless pay the taxes that support that business. Then I would suggest that they should probably find another line of business.

Then I assume you would say a Jewish baker who might refuse to bake a cake for a Neo-nazi who wants a cake sprinkled with some swastikas, find another business.

[Grace]

If you bid on a construction job and signed a contract to build a bar for a customer then I think you would be legally obligated to finish the job. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any law that says you need to bid on a job that disagree with. Whether it be a bar or a house built on a protected wetland or a gunshop or anything else. On the other hand, if you were a subcontractor for a general contractor building a subdivision I don't think you would have legal grounds to say. "I'm only going to install sheetrock in the houses that you are selling to straight couples. I refuse to work on any house that you are selling to a gay couple because I disapprove of gay marriage. Then you would be on shaky legal ground and likely in violation of your contract. And you may find that your contracting business suffers.

None of your examples are asking people to engage in a gay event and not relevant to the issue.

The issue is forcing people to violate their religious conscience engaging in an event that violates their religious conscience. It has been established that The cake bakers and photographers would provide cakes and photos of gay couples and not deny them service. The line is crossed when they are asked to engage in an event.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of any law that says you need to bid on a job that disagree with

.

Suppose there is a bar owner that heard good reviews about a specific builder. That bar owner bar goes to that specific building contractor and asks him to bid on building his new bar. But the building contractor respectfully refuses, and explains he cannot in good conscience build a bar. However he explains that were the bar owner to build a home, he would gladly do it.

Does the bar owner have right to take the builder to court, because he refused to provide a service that was asked of him?

I see no difference between a Christian baker being asked to do a job, and refusing, versus a building contractor being asked to do a job and refusing. Both are in a line of business that provides services to the public. So should the builder find another line of business because he cannot in good conscience bid on building a bar? Should he find another line of business because he refuses to provide a service specific to his occupation, because of his religious conscience?

[Josh]

1. If I was a wedding cake baker who disapproved of gay marriage on religious grounds and a gay couple came into my shop asking for a cake. I would tell them that "I disapprove of gay marriage on religious grounds but I understand that you now have a legal right to marry under the Constitution. And that state law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. So I will reluctantly do my best to accommodate you on the understanding that this does not mean I approve. Is that fair?"

You do know that's illegal discrimination, right? Open and shut case, you'd lose in court, have a big judgment to pay to the gay couple, and have to liquidate and sell your business to pay them.

2. If a 60 year old man came into my shop with a 13 year old girl for a wedding cake I would tell him. "Sir, what you are doing is statutory rape and child molestation" and then I would call the police and report them. State law does not protect rapists or pedophiles so I would be on solid ground.

Except in much of the world such relationships are legal or else are protected by the state and the elite and powerful. So, if you lived in one of those states, would you serve this hypothetical customer or not?

I think the original point was that a homosexual relationship is an objectionable as the situations described above (and for good reason; back when I was a worldly person who accepted homosexual relationships, I noticed that many of my gay friends seemed to conduct relationships with teenage boys. One awkward moment was when I asked a 25-and-45 year old couple about when they met. They started telling me about how their relationship started 10 years ago.)