The Collapse of America

A place to discuss history and historical events.
Bootstrap

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Bootstrap »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:09 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:58 pm
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:55 pm As far as I can recall, I didn't specify anyone as a Marxist, let alone a "vast majority" of anyone.

Would you provide the specific quotation where I called anyone a Marxist, so I know what you're referring to, please?

Perhaps you could just clarify if I misunderstood. What made you mention Marxism?
Perhaps you could just quit misrepresenting what I said in your posts. It's not appreciated.
To me, you seemed to be accusing Warnock of being a Marxist in this post:

viewtopic.php?p=119505#p119505

To me, you seemed to be accusing some Mennos of enabling "the worst manifestions of Mammon" in this post, which you also seemed to be associating with Marxism:
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:01 pm That's fine if you believe that. It's also part of what I love about Mennos. Unfortunately, as I'm learning by listening, it's also blind in some ways, and not always totally harmless, especially if it enables the worst manifestations of Mammon. Just my opinion and something to think about.
This was the same post I responded to:
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:28 pm Are you aware of what Marx said about religion being the "opiate of the people?" Do you understand economic determinism and "material dialectics?"

Marx really did deify economics in a way no other system has before. Socialists really do believe economics determines everything by moving through "history" in the form of "material dialectics." Most people don't understand this.

And most people believe Jesus' teaching about Mammon means don't idolize money or the power that comes with it.

For a socialist there really is nothing but money and power. Naturally, they wouldn't put it that way. ;)

They would just call it "economic determinism" and "material dialectics" which for them is just "science".

How you see it depends on what lens you view it through.

Could you perhaps clarify? I was not trying to misrepresent you, if I got it wrong, I apologize. Could you please be clear about what you did intend to say?
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Falco Underhill
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 pm
Affiliation: Hermit

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Falco Underhill »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:27 pm To me, you seemed to be accusing Warnock of being a Marxist in this post:

viewtopic.php?p=119505#p119505
So, it would have been better just to ask, "Falco, are you suggesting Warnock is a Marxist here?"
Bootstrap wrote:To me, you seemed to be accusing some Mennos of enabling "the worst manifestions of Mammon" in this post, which you also seemed to be associating with Marxism:

post_id=119515 time=1617472911 user_id=12549]
That would have been a much better introduction to any questions you had for me rather than "How dare you say x! That's no different than saying something like z" etc, :D

Will I clarify? Let me put it this way: you began this conversation with me by making unwarranted assumptions about my posts and accusations based on those assumptions. Based on my past discussions with you, it seems every conversation with you gets derailed and I end up on the recieving end of one your harangues about Trump, Sidney Powell, conspiracy theories, etc, which I've asked you not to do, and which is still a concern for me.

So you started this conversation disrespectfully and ive no reason to believe you won't end it that way.

Therefore, my answer is no.

You'll have to troll somebody else, Boot, 'cause im not taking the bait anymore!
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Bootstrap

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Bootstrap »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:45 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:27 pm To me, you seemed to be accusing Warnock of being a Marxist in this post:

viewtopic.php?p=119505#p119505
So, it would have been better just to ask, "Falco, are you suggesting Warnock is a Marxist here?"
Yes, that would have been better. Would you care to discuss this? I think Warnock is a Christian minister who does not believe in Marxism and does not want to overthrow the government, I don't think he believes in the Marxist laws of history. Would you agree? If not, why did the topic of Marxism come up?

I don't know much about Warnock, I know I disagree with him on abortion and some other things that matter to me a lot, but I don't think he is a Marxist. Do you? If so, why?
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:45 pm
Bootstrap wrote:To me, you seemed to be accusing some Mennos of enabling "the worst manifestions of Mammon" in this post, which you also seemed to be associating with Marxism:

post_id=119515 time=1617472911 user_id=12549]
That would have been a much better introduction to any questions you had for me rather than "How dare you say x! That's no different than saying something like z" etc, :D
I didn't say anything like "how dare you say." I do, however, ask what evidence you have for accusations you are making or implying, what exactly you mean. I'm not sure if you know which people here are Mennonites, I don't know of anyone here who is Marxist or wants to foster Marxism, but there are people here who are neither Marxist nor right-wing.
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:45 pm You'll have to troll somebody else, Boot, 'cause im not taking the bait anymore!
I can't force you to respond, but I'm not trolling and I"m not trying to misrepresent you.
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KrisKramer
Posts: 180
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Location: Pennsylvania
Affiliation: Raised Conserv. Menn

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by KrisKramer »

“No one can serve two masters,” Jesus says in Matthew 6:24. “Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”  

Isaiah 1:17 says, “Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.”

It is our job to seek for justice to be enacted, oppression to end, and to speak up on the behalf of the voiceless in our societies in every instance that we can.

In Luke 12:15, Jesus says, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.’”

Do you think healthcare is a human right?

Do you believe that everyone deserves a living wage so they can afford housing, food, clothing, and the ability to raise their children? 

Jesus would enact socialist policies because of His teachings about love and good will toward one’s neighbor. Throughout His ministry, Christ emphasized the importance of helping people. 

Socialism’s mortal enemy is capitalist greed, which Jesus seemed to decry.

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:25).
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temporal1

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by temporal1 »

.. Jesus would enact socialist policies ..

Jesus never suggested organizing political blocs+cults to commandeer governments, control public treasuries - for the purpose of taxing others to achieve His righteous end purposes. Not His way.

However, this is widely confused by those in the world seeking to profit through confusion.
Read carefully.

Pastors who lead their flocks to seek after government for answers are particularly off-message and damaging. :(
Pray for them!

Do be cautious.
Seek the Holy Spirit to help discern authentic Truth, not anyone’s particular version of it.
Peace be with you.
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temporal1

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by temporal1 »

Robert wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:25 am I see the moral and spiritual collapse.
The other ways will follow since much of what the US culture was established on was s strong moral and spiritual foundation.

Science has improved our quantity of life, but we are loosing the quality of life.

i did not want to read or post in this thread today, Easter Sunday .. :-|
since i lacked the fortitude to do this, i, at least, want to revisit Robert’s post. ^^

Robert’s message reminds of a recent post of Honduras Keiser in which he describes the depth of happiness and brotherly love he finds in a poverty-stricken community WITHOUT, or BEFORE being visited with “developed world” dreams+desires.
It’s not that this is unusual. It’s typical. Those with prosperity but without peace seem to generously want everyone to join them in their self-determined “better” state. Yes. It is backward.

HK’s real life post is so valuable, it deserves sharing here: :D
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:52 am For what it's worth I posted this thought here 2&1/2 years ago and the sentiments are still the same
but perhaps more articulate and speak to broader structural issues better than what I just posted in response to MikeF
(this may also get to T1's query):

I’ve lived and worked in Honduras for 10 years both as a missionary, serving the very poorest of society and now as teacher, where I give philosophy and history classes to the children of the very wealthiest. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Honduran society and I certainly cannot claim to have many answers with respect to issues of immigration.

The whole topic strikes me as far more complex and nuanced than what many voices on either the Right or the Left make it out to be. Nevertheless, I know the milieu in which I live, I know why many poor Hondurans choose to emigrate illegally,
I know why many wealthy Hondurans fly to Miami or Atlanta to give birth to their children and I know that all else remaining constant, this current caravan is only the beginning.

A poor Honduran lives his life with little to no hope of ever achieving anything approaching financial stability.
The people I know make their livings off of garbage collecting, selling un-ripened bananas and day-laboring at construction sites. I’m particularly close with a group of young men and older boys that live in and around the municipal garbage dump of La Ceiba.

:arrow: In many respects they are some of the happiest, most worldly-wise, most realistic people that I have ever met.
Not much upsets them, they laugh often and give fully of themselves to whoever asks. They also have absolutely no hope of a better future. They work hard, incredibly hard; rising before dawn to load up on either the banana or garbage trucks and not finishing work until late in the evening. For their efforts they manage to bring home about $5 a day with which they are expected to either help support their parent(s) or the family that they’ve started.
Some in the garbage dump community also manage to study in the local public high school on the weekends.
Their hope is that if they can manage to graduate high school, perhaps even college, that they will be more attractive to local businesses and thereby land jobs as sales clerks, cashiers or bank tellers.

I haven’t the heart to tell them that all of their effort will likely be for naught as businesses simply don’t have the available positions to fill and that even if they did, business owners would never consider a public high school education worth anything compared to one from a private high school.

The economy here is anemic, the currency is prone to inflation and the ability to open and maintain a small to medium-sized business is notoriously difficult both because of the endless and contradictory bureaucratic paperwork and because gangs often extort local proprietors until they have to shutter their operations.

Government for its part is utterly corrupt; it actively steals from any and all available funds, including and most recently the Social Security fund. It refuses to maintain a proper infrastructure, protect its citizens from gangs and narco-traffickers, provide a decent public education or healthcare system and it has now begun to blatantly steal elections.

This then is what drives the poor of Honduras to leave their country, their homes and their families.
Sure there are many fleeing direct threats of violence; I’ve known a few.
Most though leave because they simply have no future here, no hope of achieving what they see on the television, no hope of offering a better life to their children.

Those of my friends that I’ve watched leave have never been eager to go, they were heart-broken at the prospect of leaving the friends and families behind and they always insisted that they’d return; they simply saw no other way of improving their lot in life. They recognized that Honduras as it is, as it is structured, keeps them permanently poor.

I am not sure what the solution is.
Nothing the United States does at the border will change Honduran society or diminish the impetus to emigrate.
Life for 4.8 million Hondurans will still be a never-ending hamster-wheel of poverty.
The government will still defraud its citizens at every turn.
Gangs will still operate with impunity.

Hondurans will still find ways to enter the U.S. illegally. If the United States wants to to truly solve the immigration crisis, and a caravan/invading horde of 7,000 people is a crisis, it needs to make some difficult decisions that affect those that are in power here.

It can begin by cutting off aid, every penny to this country. The U.S. gave $67.8 million in military and development aid to Honduras in 2018. In 2017 it was over 100 million.
That money is not reaching its intended destinations; its being siphoned off to corrupt government officials at every level before ever reaching a worthy development project.

The U.S. should revoke travel visas of known corrupt officials.
Recently there have been a few prominent politicians to lose their U.S. entry visas, there should be many more, beginning with the President.

Lastly, immigration law should change to make it more difficult for the wealthy of Honduras to fly to the U.S. to have their children and thereby procure for them birthright citizenship. Many of my students are U.S. citizens and haven’t the faintest inkling of what that means for them in terms of rights and attendant responsibilities.

Such practices make a mockery of citizenship as a concept and make legal for the wealthy i.e. anchor-babies, the very thing that the poor are demonized for attempting to do.

These solutions, if you an call them that, may seem naïve and short-sighted.
I know that it would not solve the structural problems here as such.

I know too though that unless those that are in power have real and sustained pressure put on them, unless their access to unlimited funds is finally cut off, unless they are forced to truly reckon with what they’ve wrought in this country;
Honduras will continue to produce thousands of émigrées every year and the U.S. will continue to fight this battle by proxy at the southern border.

HK is speaking about emigration/immigration, but the “math” involved is the same.
governments fail. with ALL that is known about gov incompetence+corruption, the great mystery is:
WHY do so many believe MORE GOV is “the answer?”

Refer to Robert’s post above. ^^ moral and spiritual collapse cannot be “taxed away.”
IF ONLY THIS WERE TRUE! It would be so much easier. “Tax+cure!” Sorry. That’s not what Jesus said. :-|
Last edited by temporal1 on Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Bootstrap

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:10 am
.. Jesus would enact socialist policies ..

Jesus never suggested organizing political blocs+cults to commandeer governments, control public treasuries - for the purpose of taxing others to achieve His righteous end purposes. Not His way.
I agree with you that Jesus was not organizing political parties or recommending any particular form of government. He did criticize some elected officials, but for the most part, he was just showing what it looks like to live in the Kingdom of God.
KrisKramer wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:00 am “No one can serve two masters,” Jesus says in Matthew 6:24. “Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”  

Isaiah 1:17 says, “Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.”

It is our job to seek for justice to be enacted, oppression to end, and to speak up on the behalf of the voiceless in our societies in every instance that we can.

In Luke 12:15, Jesus says, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.’”
I think this is what the Kingdom of God looks like. Whether or not America collapses, we can choose to live this way. We can serve. We can live as Jesus taught us to.

In a democracy, Christians can decide whether to vote. If we vote, I think Christian values should inform our vote. Regardless, our true identity needs to be in the Kingdom, where we live as Jesus taught.
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Falco Underhill
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 pm
Affiliation: Hermit

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Falco Underhill »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:31 am Would you care to discuss this?
I'm sorry to say it, Boot, but not with you. I just don't see you as a respectful dialog partner.
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Josh

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap and Ken’s belief in American exceptionalism really is a sight to behold. They truly believe America is special, and somehow will continue to be special despite all other signs pointing to both a global decline and a specific decline of the American empire.

There are no signs in America of improvement. The rich are getting vastly richer; the poor are getting poorer. The middle class is being wiped out. Asset prices are skyrocketing: 1/5th of single family homes now are being bought by investors, not families. Bill Gates is the largest owner of farmland. Family farmers are being crushed by low prices for what they produce, even as the poor are being crushed by higher and higher food prices at the places they buy.

30% of employment was declared “inessential” last year. An economy and country doesn’t improve when you knock out 1/3rd of its labourers.

America’s health is declining, with obesity rising at shocking rates. Among the 48% of millennials who reported unwanted weight change during covid, the average weight gain was 41 pounds.

Image

No amount of science can reverse how unhealthy Americans are becoming, and neither can any amount of healthcare. Healthcare spending is now https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistic ... Historical18% of the economy[/url], and continues to grow. What future do we have when you have to spend 20% or 30% of your paycheck on healthcare?

The future of America is a giant favela, complete with your life being controlled by violent cartels, and unimaginably corrupt government rigging elections, ultra-wealthy powerful elite who do whatever they can to cling to their wealth, but with worse weather than Central America or South America.
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Sudsy

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Sudsy »

And with all that there is no more wonderful place to live than here in Canada. We still are sooooo blessed !!!!
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