Karl Marx: Opium of the People

[Ken]

A lot of Christians, including Mennonites did make an unholy alliance with Hitler and the Nazis before and during WW2. In both Germany and countries like Ukraine and Belarus. Some, like those in Ukraine were largely victims squeezed by two titanic evil forces. Others, like those in Germany, were largely willing participants in fascism.

What is the lesson there? Be wary of demagogues and extremists on both sides I suppose. But also that democracy and civil rights are precious commodities. Once you lose them, the head can quickly circle back to bite the tail. The original sin in Germany was not fighting for democracy and civil rights when those were under attack in the early 1930s. Once they were gone they weren't coming back until Germany was in ashes.

[Josh]

A lot of Christians, including Mennonites did make an unholy alliance with Hitler and the Nazis before and during WW2. In both Germany and countries like Ukraine and Belarus. Some, like those in Ukraine were largely victims squeezed by two titanic evil forces. Others, like those in Germany, were largely willing participants in fascism.

What is the lesson there? Be wary of demagogues and extremists on both sides I suppose. But also that democracy and civil rights are precious commodities. Once you lose them, the head can quickly circle back to bite the tail. The original sin in Germany was not fighting for democracy and civil rights when those were under attack in the early 1930s. Once they were gone they weren't coming back until Germany was in ashes.

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say the “original sin” was tolerating Berlin of the 1920s, an extremely decadent era?

In any case, civil rights and democracy are rapidly eroded in America of the 2020s; some people think it’s normal for the government to command you not to go to church for months on end, not to visit your parents or family, and not to go to your job.

[Ken]

A lot of Christians, including Mennonites did make an unholy alliance with Hitler and the Nazis before and during WW2. In both Germany and countries like Ukraine and Belarus. Some, like those in Ukraine were largely victims squeezed by two titanic evil forces. Others, like those in Germany, were largely willing participants in fascism.

What is the lesson there? Be wary of demagogues and extremists on both sides I suppose. But also that democracy and civil rights are precious commodities. Once you lose them, the head can quickly circle back to bite the tail. The original sin in Germany was not fighting for democracy and civil rights when those were under attack in the early 1930s. Once they were gone they weren't coming back until Germany was in ashes.

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say the “original sin” was tolerating Berlin of the 1920s, an extremely decadent era?

In any case, civil rights and democracy are rapidly eroded in America of the 2020s; some people think it’s normal for the government to command you not to go to church for months on end, not to visit your parents or family, and not to go to your job.

No, I would not blame WW2 and the Holocaust on the decadence in Berlin in the 1920s. It wasn't jazz musicians and dancers who joined the Waffen SS and set Europe on fire. They were more likely to find themselves inside the concentration camps rather than running them.

[Bootstrap]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say the “original sin” was tolerating Berlin of the 1920s, an extremely decadent era?

I lived in Berlin for 8 years. I doubt that it was less sinful after Hitler, but it was certainly a LOT less Christian. Christianity lost its credibility in the eyes of many Germans because it had colluded with Hitler. This is why people like Bonhoeffer are so important, we need the example of the few Christians who were willing to stand up to Hitler. Even imperfectly.

In modern Berlin, I was never persecuted. Nominal Christianity was considered normal, the church and classical music and nice buildings and all that, but committed Christianity and really believing the Bible was odd enough to be puzzling to most Germans I knew in Berlin. Of course, there were some great churches, but we were a small minority.

If Christians align with the angriest political factions, I worry that the same thing could happen here. Of course, nobody in American politics is equivalent to Hitler, but in the last election, a majority of each side thought the other side was an "existential threat" to them. When I talk to Christians in other countries, they ask me why Christians in America no longer support refugees.

I'm happy to be persecuted for following what Jesus said and did. I'm happy to live out a faith that looks like nonsense to the secular world around us. I would rather not be persecuted for aligning myself with one of the worldly factions as though I am on one side of the political wars. That persecution would be well-deserved.

In any case, civil rights and democracy are rapidly eroded in America of the 2020s; some people think it’s normal for the government to command you not to go to church for months on end, not to visit your parents or family, and not to go to your job.

Watch this space. Life today is certainly not normal. A year from now, I bet we will be back to a much more normal life. Churches are reopening around me, I am visiting relatives (while taking precautions). If things do not start to change as we get on top of this pandemic, I will share your concern.

[Josh]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say the “original sin” was tolerating Berlin of the 1920s, an extremely decadent era?

I lived in Berlin for 8 years. I doubt that it was less sinful after Hitler, but it was certainly a LOT less Christian. Christianity lost its credibility in the eyes of many Germans because it had colluded with Hitler. This is why people like Bonhoeffer are so important, we need the example of the few Christians who were willing to stand up to Hitler. Even imperfectly.

In modern Berlin, I was never persecuted. Nominal Christianity was considered normal, the church and classical music and nice buildings and all that, but committed Christianity and really believing the Bible was odd enough to be puzzling to most Germans I knew in Berlin. Of course, there were some great churches, but we were a small minority.

If Christians align with the angriest political factions, I worry that the same thing could happen here. Of course, nobody in American politics is equivalent to Hitler, but in the last election, a majority of each side thought the other side was an "existential threat" to them. When I talk to Christians in other countries, they ask me why Christians in America no longer support refugees.

I'm happy to be persecuted for following what Jesus said and did. I'm happy to live out a faith that looks like nonsense to the secular world around us. I would rather not be persecuted for aligning myself with one of the worldly factions as though I am on one side of the political wars. That persecution would be well-deserved.

In any case, civil rights and democracy are rapidly eroded in America of the 2020s; some people think it’s normal for the government to command you not to go to church for months on end, not to visit your parents or family, and not to go to your job.

Watch this space. Life today is certainly not normal. A year from now, I bet we will be back to a much more normal life. Churches are reopening around me, I am visiting relatives (while taking precautions). If things do not start to change as we get on top of this pandemic, I will share your concern.

Can you set a time limit on that? We were told two weeks to “flatten the curve”.

[Wade]

If any may recall the Communists promised they would win the west but they would do it from the inside. Take a look at our medical system of abortions, euthanasia, vaccines profited by abortions, and etc. You don't have to look further than if a person supports conventional medicine unreservedly and you can see easily who has been won into communist ideas "unknowingly" - unfortunately most North Americans seem to support these COVID vaccines that are benefited from abortions, they are completely experimental without proper full testing and the producers have no legal accountability and people are crying to get it and are content with absurdly inconsistent isolation restrictions - while saying they love their neighbours... It's like the people aren't even asking for Communism but rather are already sold into it. Praying for the scales to fall off many "Christians."

[Szdfan]

If any may recall the Communists promised they would win the west but they would do it from the inside.

I remember this mostly from anti-Communist Cold War propaganda, not from Communists.

Take a look at our medical system of abortions, euthanasia, vaccines profited by abortions, and etc. You don't have to look further than if a person supports conventional medicine unreservedly and you can see easily who has been won into communist ideas "unknowingly" - unfortunately most North Americans seem to support these COVID vaccines that are benefited from abortions, they are completely experimental without proper full testing and the producers have no legal accountability and people are crying to get it and are content with absurdly inconsistent isolation restrictions - while saying they love their neighbours...

None of this has anything to do with Communism. It’s as if “Communism” is being used as a big scary word with no real meaning to it.

[Bootstrap]

If any may recall the Communists promised they would win the west but they would do it from the inside.

But history seems to have run in the opposite direction.

There are still some Communist countries: China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam. Other countries are not clamoring to join them.

The following countries were once Communist, but are no longer: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Mongolia, Yemen, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Germany (East), Hungary, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Rep. of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Slovenia, Angola, Benin, Dem Rep. of Congo, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, and Mozambique.

None of those is communist today. The world is not unifying under communism. Communism lost. I mean, steam engines still exist, but they aren't taking over the world.

Take a look at our medical system of abortions, euthanasia, vaccines profited by abortions, and etc. You don't have to look further than if a person supports conventional medicine unreservedly and you can see easily who has been won into communist ideas "unknowingly" - unfortunately most North Americans seem to support these COVID vaccines that are benefited from abortions, they are completely experimental without proper full testing and the producers have no legal accountability and people are crying to get it and are content with absurdly inconsistent isolation restrictions - while saying they love their neighbours...

Lots to unpack there, but none of that looks like Marxism or communism to me. Can you say something about how you are defining these terms?

[Bootstrap]

It's like the people aren't even asking for Communism but rather are already sold into it. Praying for the scales to fall off many "Christians."

Wait, what? If I think Covid is real and people should be vaccinated, you think that means I am sold into Communism and that my Christianity is suspect?

I'm wondering how you define both Communism and Christianity. Christianity is about Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God, as found in the Bible. Communism is a political theory that advocates class warfare, leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

I don't see any Marxists here. I do see Christians. And our Christianity really should be mostly about the things that Jesus was mostly about in the Bible.

[Szdfan]

I mean, steam engines still exist, but they aren't taking over the world.

Much too my eternal sorrow. Steam locomotives are awesome.