Randal Martin on the CAM/Jeriah Debacle

[RZehr]

I respectfully disagree. If I know about a misdeed right from the source, and I approach leadership, and the first thing out of their mouth is "who told you that??!!" Yep, its true and they know it.

You'll learn in a hurry never to disclose a valuable source. That can burn you both ways.

I'm not just referencing church leadership but also in a corporate environment as well.

Why are you protecting a source? How are they valuable to you? Seems to me that if the matter is worth investigating, then it is as valuable as a source. What is the point in covering up and hiding and protecting someone who told you something? This sounds to me very similar to what you are accusing the leaders of. I’m puzzled.

[temporal1]

I think we're all on the same page here... just coming at it from different angles.

I think so.

in the ELIZABETH SMART case, her abductor took her from her own bed, her sister asleep in the same room, her mother+father in the house! she submitted to him: he threatened to kill/harm her family!

a common tactic of SIN.

improvement has been made in grasping the fact that victims DO NOT always respond the way “all logic” tells us they “SHOULD.” even courts recognize victims may be silent for DECADES before speaking.

the internet is allowing some unprecedented growth in understanding - what is not readily understood.
it’s easy to take it for granted. i’ve witnessed improvement in my lifetime. one step here. another here.

it is complicated by the fact that there are mistakes; some claimed victims lie. there is no “slam dunk.”

SIN MAKES SURE THERE IS NO SLAM DUNK.

in the meanwhile, innocents+outsiders might be able to learn not to allow SIN to “divide+conquer” them.
as you say, there are different “angles”/experiences.

real life isn’t a neat little movie presented+wrapped up in 90 minutes.
we love slam dunks.

[steve-in-kville]

I respectfully disagree. If I know about a misdeed right from the source, and I approach leadership, and the first thing out of their mouth is "who told you that??!!" Yep, its true and they know it.

You'll learn in a hurry never to disclose a valuable source. That can burn you both ways.

I'm not just referencing church leadership but also in a corporate environment as well.

Why are you protecting a source? How are they valuable to you? Seems to me that if the matter is worth investigating, then it is as valuable as a source. What is the point in covering up and hiding and protecting someone who told you something? This sounds to me very similar to what you are accusing the leaders of. I’m puzzled.

Again, I think we're all on the same page, just referencing different experiences we've had.

The key is to not reveal there is a source at all. There's tactful ways of going about this to save face on all sides. It can be done. In the workplace, I value the few sources I have, and they value me likewise.

I have gone to leadership and have hinted that "you night want to look into XYZ. Something ain't right there." If they ask why I feel the way I do, I often reply with "Meh. Stuff I heard, stuff I've seen. Math doesn't line up."

See? Doesn't have to be aggressive or emotional. They respect the fact that I am the eyes and ears on the floor that they can't be. They don't worry about who may have told me what or how I came to learn info. They do their job and look into it.

[Aurien]

To RZehr and others who are questioning why I won't give more information here:

It's a matter of respecting someone's wishes and also knowing that it is not wise to say everything I may know on a public forum. I won't run roughshod over others wishes just because people want to know more details.

I understand that people are frustrated with the lack of details and probably with their inability to do anything with this extremely limited information. I do think there are a couple of things people can do.

1. I believe that there are people at CAM who sincerely want to do what is right. They may mistakenly believe though that something that happened years ago doesn't need to be brought up now. They may accidentally harm victims even though they actually want to help them. So pray that they would seek out resources and people to help them understand how abusers operate and how to help victims without further harming them. A Better Way is having an event in Ohio in May. If you know someone who works with CAM and is interested in preventing abuse and learning about the effects of abuse then perhaps you could reach out to them about this event. Most (or maybe all) of the speakers for the event are not Mennonites but please don't let that discourage you from attending. These people know what they're talking about.

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/a-better-w ... wKojAOQXuw



2. If you still donate to CAM then I encourage you to withhold your donations and put pressure on CAM to have an independent, third party investigation. I honestly believe at this point that a major drop in donations is the only thing that will get the leaders at CAM to agree to such an investigation. I see CAM right now as having a festering wound. That wound needs to be cleaned out and healed in order for CAM to truly thrive. The longer CAM tries to conceal that wound the more it festers and stinks and turns people away from Jesus. I think having an independent investigation would be a good start to healing that wound.

[mike]

2. If you still donate to CAM then I encourage you to withhold your donations and put pressure on CAM to have an independent, third party investigation. I honestly believe at this point that a major drop in donations is the only thing that will get the leaders at CAM to agree to such an investigation. I see CAM right now as having a festering wound. That wound needs to be cleaned out and healed in order for CAM to truly thrive. The longer CAM tries to conceal that wound the more it festers and stinks and turns people away from Jesus. I think having an independent investigation would be a good start to healing that wound.

I think to large extent CAM's supporters are CAM. Many of CAM's donors actually have worked as CAM employees at some point, many more are or have been volunteers for CAM projects, and even more are closely associated with someone who is or has done either of the those. I'm not closely associated with CAM at all, but I've volunteered on CAM projects in my life, as has my son, and innumerable other people I know.

I would guess the percentage of donors that have actually done work for CAM is larger than many other similar organizations. These people are CAM. Their strengths and weaknesses are CAM's strength and weaknesses. CAM rises or falls on how these people feel about the organization.

I believe that CAM's donors still feel good about the organization in general, even though they know the Jeriah Mast situation was a huge mistake on the part of several people, and possibly of others who may have mismanaged the response. They still feel good about it generally because they are involved the work. They can see for themselves what CAM is doing in any number of projects and missions across the world, because they know people who are on the ground, or they've been there, or they trust the word of people who know.

These people are generally going to keep giving to CAM, and may even increase their giving if they are able to. Apparently the Haiti situation had no impact on the normal growth in revenue for CAM, and reportedly, growth in donations was extraordinarily high in 2020 when stimulus money rained on everybody, including those whose businesses in essential services did exceptionally well because of the pandemic.

[KrisKramer]

2. If you still donate to CAM then I encourage you to withhold your donations and put pressure on CAM to have an independent, third party investigation. I honestly believe at this point that a major drop in donations is the only thing that will get the leaders at CAM to agree to such an investigation. I see CAM right now as having a festering wound. That wound needs to be cleaned out and healed in order for CAM to truly thrive. The longer CAM tries to conceal that wound the more it festers and stinks and turns people away from Jesus. I think having an independent investigation would be a good start to healing that wound.

I think to large extent CAM's supporters are CAM. Many of CAM's donors actually have worked as CAM employees at some point, many more are or have been volunteers for CAM projects, and even more are closely associated with someone who is or has done either of the those. I'm not closely associated with CAM at all, but I've volunteered on CAM projects in my life, as has my son, and innumerable other people I know.

I would guess the percentage of donors that have actually done work for CAM is larger than many other similar organizations. These people are CAM. Their strengths and weaknesses are CAM's strength and weaknesses. CAM rises or falls on how these people feel about the organization.

I believe that CAM's donors still feel good about the organization in general, even though they know the Jeriah Mast situation was a huge mistake on the part of several people, and possibly of others who may have mismanaged the response. They still feel good about it generally because they are involved the work. They can see for themselves what CAM is doing in any number of projects and missions across the world, because they know people who are on the ground, or they've been there, or they trust the word of people who know.

These people are generally going to keep giving to CAM, and may even increase their giving if they are able to. Apparently the Haiti situation had no impact on the normal growth in revenue for CAM, and reportedly, growth in donations was extraordinarily high in 2020 when stimulus money rained on everybody, including those whose businesses in essential services did exceptionally well because of the pandemic.

That hurts my heart. Haiti meant nothing to people.

People have had their lives impacted in a way that will effect them forever and it meant nothing to CAM supporters.

If this is true then change isn't going to happen.... CAM has no reason to do anything...it isn't "hurting them" and before you say God is a reason for them to..... it never was before

[Soloist]

I would guess the percentage of donors that have actually done work for CAM is larger than many other similar organizations. These people are CAM. Their strengths and weaknesses are CAM's strength and weaknesses. CAM rises or falls on how these people feel about the organization.

I believe that CAM's donors still feel good about the organization in general, even though they know the Jeriah Mast situation was a huge mistake on the part of several people, and possibly of others who may have mismanaged the response. They still feel good about it generally because they are involved the work. They can see for themselves what CAM is doing in any number of projects and missions across the world, because they know people who are on the ground, or they've been there, or they trust the word of people who know.
These people are generally going to keep giving to CAM, and may even increase their giving if they are able to. Apparently the Haiti situation had no impact on the normal growth in revenue for CAM, and reportedly, growth in donations was extraordinarily high in 2020 when stimulus money rained on everybody, including those whose businesses in essential services did exceptionally well because of the pandemic.

That hurts my heart. Haiti meant nothing to people.

People have had their lives impacted in a way that will effect them forever and it meant nothing to CAM supporters.

If this is true then change isn't going to happen.... CAM has no reason to do anything...it isn't "hurting them" and before you say God is a reason for them to..... it never was before

This isn't true across the board. Some of us care and while we would still donate money, we are very selective in where we would donate. I would much rather support Grace press then CAM though at this point. We need to take these things seriously although, I'm not in favor of a forum witch hunt or implied statements. Most of these people in the higher levels of CAM might be ministry and while I do think these things need to be brought out, I think that one needs to be very careful to follow Scripture in how to do so.

[Aurien]

When God was a Victim: What a Child Abuse Survivor Taught Me about Good Friday
https://www.netgrace.org/resources/when ... Jhu4sbXSvM

[steve-in-kville]

This isn't true across the board. Some of us care and while we would still donate money, we are very selective in where we would donate. I would much rather support Grace press then CAM though at this point. We need to take these things seriously although, I'm not in favor of a forum witch hunt or implied statements. Most of these people in the higher levels of CAM might be ministry and while I do think these things need to be brought out, I think that one needs to be very careful to follow Scripture in how to do so.

And how, pray tell, would one go about that? We're at this almost two years now...

[Grace]

That hurts my heart. Haiti meant nothing to people.

People have had their lives impacted in a way that will effect them forever and it meant nothing to CAM supporters.

If this is true then change isn't going to happen.... CAM has no reason to do anything...it isn't "hurting them" and before you say God is a reason for them to..... it never was before

I sincerely hope CAM has learned from their terrible mistakes going forward. Withholding donations to CAM doesn't hurt those in charge. However it does hurt the many poor, starving and impoverished people they help. I sincerely hope the people who discontinue supporting CAM with their finances, find other organizations who help the poor and needy around the world. We are commanded in the scriptures to give to the poor and needy and relief organizations such as CAM, MCC, etc. and other organizations provide the vehicle to do that.

CAM made a terrible mistake in the Jeriah Mast situation, but the larger picture is that they are still providing a need for the poor and needy around the world. Perhaps we should ask those who CAM provides relief to, whether they should be denied the help and relief from the organization? We should ask those whose homes were repaired or rebuilt by CAM after a disaster struck their homes, how they feel about getting help from them. We should ask the parents of the children in impoverished countries whose children benefited from medicine and formula/food from CAM? Or the poor widows in India who are helped by CAM?

As rich, well fed Americans, who are we to say poor impoverished people and their children should not be provided help from CAM?