Protesting

[Josh]

The Bible says to teach against fornication, which would do quite a bit to reduce abortions. It doesn’t say in the Bible to make life easier for fornicator - rather it tells us to teach them to repent.

[temporal1]

I was asked if I agree with the march for life protests. No, I don't.
I agree with stopping the materialism and investing into people's lives by showing them love and support.
One thing I found incredibly unhelpful as a new Christian was other Christians telling me what to do and change in my life without helping.
If I tell someone not to abort:
- am I prepared to adopt that child or many?
- am I prepared to house a single pregnant mother or many?
- am I prepared to physically pay for the needs of these people?
- am I prepared to help people who have aborted emotionally and spiritually?

I believe this is what Christ calls us to do. He never protested but rather healed and helped each person individually. He worked from the bottom - not the top - hence the upside down Kingdom.


9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
James 2:9

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, He is guilty of all.
James 2:10

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
James 2:15

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:16

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:17

i agree with everything you’re saying. i do not march.
i accept others do. i respect others’ choices to say+do things i would not. (that used to be important in the U.S.)

to clarify, MFL, led by Catholics and other Christians, and others not Christian, invest a lot in your list of “be prepared to.” personally and as groups (example: adoption services). media ignores, but much is being done and always has been! there are frequent attacks, like, “you don’t want me to have an abortion, but you won’t help me or my child!” not true. much is invested. ask. do an internet search.

(i’m not suggesting this is you, Wade.) i don’t believe it is.

Dr Alveda King is not Catholic, but participates and leads. (personally, i do not agree with women as pastors, WIM, but i respect her voice and work).

i believe God uses all for His purposes.

However, Jesus does not say we are not to sin - “as long as others support us.”
He says we are not to sin. He will provide, and reward.

The Bible says to teach against fornication, which would do quite a bit to reduce abortions. It doesn’t say in the Bible to make life easier for fornicator - rather it tells us to teach them to repent.

Yes.
Presently, gov funded schools and medicine focus on making life very easy for fornicators and sodomites.

The message isn’t about choice to make healthy decisions.
It’s saying humans are instinct-driven animals without choice, so here’s your instructions, when you become ill or pregnant, we will supply you with mitigation efforts (that pharmacies and abortionists will profit from).

What could be more demoralizing than to tell children, teens, young people they cannot control their instincts? Jesus says we can. And, He will help and reward.

i’m hoping -
children are smart enough to put 2+2 together. like this:
IF self control works to prevent a flu type virus, THEN wouldn’t self control work to prevent HIV-AIDS, STDs, pregnancy??!! imagine that!! choice!

Josh, i appreciate your messages about focus on the problem of fornication.
doing so would prevent a lot of heartaches of many descriptions.

[temporal1]

But, if you think most of today’s organized protesters aren’t after control of law and the public treasury, on an educated+professional level, I believe you are wildly mistaken.

I’m so very sorry to say.

When a lot of us line the street standing silently with signs against abortion, provided by the local Catholic church, we are primarily asking for hearts to change, not control of law. When our peace vigil has a sign "Pray for Peace" we are not looking for control of law or the public treasury. You may be correct about some "of today’s organized protesters" but not the vast majority that I have come in contact with. The goals are peace and justice.

i did not ignore. my response is now in Bunny Trails, Page 58-59-ish.
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=570

[Wade]

The Bible says to teach against fornication, which would do quite a bit to reduce abortions. It doesn’t say in the Bible to make life easier for fornicator - rather it tells us to teach them to repent.

Very true and I agree. But I think there is a time and place.
One atheist I've known for five years wouldn't ever talk to me about God. But as I showed interest in him and that I cared about him he started confiding things he doesn't tell other people, like his suicidal thoughts and attempts, his drug addiction problems, how he asked his common law wife to marry him a couple times but she keeps saying no (they have two children together).
He said what keeps him coming back is he feels no judgement when he shares and that I don't cringe at him personally.
A couple months ago in front of other people he started boasting he was a druggy fornicator... I called him out to repent in front of a bunch of his friends and he left saying, "YOU, know I've asked her!"
Yesterday he asked me which book I would recommend him start with as he begins reading the Bible.
People won't listen to what you say unless they know you really care, that takes a lot more than protesting, and it's a lot harder.

[Neto]

The Bible says to teach against fornication, which would do quite a bit to reduce abortions. It doesn’t say in the Bible to make life easier for fornicator - rather it tells us to teach them to repent.

Very true and I agree. But I think there is a time and place.
One atheist I've known for five years wouldn't ever talk to me about God. But as I showed interest in him and that I cared about him he started confiding things he doesn't tell other people, like his suicidal thoughts and attempts, his drug addiction problems, how he asked his common law wife to marry him a couple times but she keeps saying no (they have two children together).
He said what keeps him coming back is he feels no judgement when he shares and that I don't cringe at him personally.
A couple months ago in front of other people he started boasting he was a druggy fornicator... I called him out to repent in front of a bunch of his friends and he left saying, "YOU, know I've asked her!"
Yesterday he asked me which book I would recommend him start with as he begins reading the Bible.
People won't listen to what you say unless they know you really care, that takes a lot more than protesting, and it's a lot harder.

It's harder, it takes more commitment, more tenacity ("stubbornness"), and IT LASTS LONGER.

[Soloist]

It's harder, it takes more commitment, more tenacity ("stubbornness"), and IT LASTS LONGER.

Its also something few people are willing to do.

[Bootstrap]

First of all - sorry for my harshness bootstrap.

Thanks, Wade. If there are things we need to work out between us, feel free to PM me. I respect you as a Christian, and I do enjoy reading what you write here.

In regards to protesting I see it only as reactive. I see in the context of Jesus saying to not resist evil and to love our enemies as a call in our lives to be busy in proactively and actively loving others. Our motivation is rooted in the love of God. And motivation that involves reaction, which I believe protesting does(peaceful or not), is actually disobeying Christ as far as I understand Him because it is reactive. The sad part is that by my reaction to you I disobeyed this principle myself that I was trying to encourage. Sorry.

Hence why I try not to get caught up in any political, abuse stopping, racism renouncing, or etc. bandwagon, and people get upset or confused when I don't speak out - I believe Christ never got caught up in any of these things but intentionally, continually, and unconditionally actively gave Himself to self-sacrificing love for everyone. That is what I want to emulate when I don't get involved with any movement - the world gets involved in these things. I need to be emptied of self and lovingly serving others as I follow Christ. Protesting seems too late(maybe I'm reacting because I wasn't active enough?!) and protesting seems demanding and trying bend another person - love isn't demanding.

I think Jesus did get between the crowd and the woman caught in adultery, he marched on Jerusalem, he cast out the moneychangers, he excoriated the Pharisees in Matthew 23 ... so to me, it's not quite that simple.

And I don't think all protests are the same. I don't want to be like an angry mob. For the right cause, I would be happy to be part of a crowd of Christians praying, putting our trust in God, and singing "we shall overcome!" In the 1960s, I really think that Martin Luther King provided an alternative to the angry crowds and people like Malcom X. And I think that the sight of blacks and whites marching together or sitting together and eating was a good witness. Yes, King was an adulterer, but this was not something people knew and this was a good example of Christians working together visibly for good.

When people have a grievance, and it's as significant as segregation and blatant racism was, it's going to come out somehow. Giving them a way to express themselves peacefully while singing hymns and praying seems like a good approach to me. We need alternatives to angry mobs.

But I'm really not sure what the best approaches are or which ones I would lead. I'm more sure that I am reluctant to criticize peaceful outlets for dealing with real grievances. The attitude matters. Violence is not OK.

More in another post ...

[Bootstrap]

Is there a difference between mass protesting (linking arms with people of all stripes including sinners) and protesting as an individual like the OT prophets or like Paul in the NT?

What if everyone who protested in mass in 2020, would have written letters to their civil leaders, stood outside a state building with a sign, used a bullhorn, used social media, etc. all across America? And rather than attack the people they don't like, what if they would have addressed principles that should be followed?

I'm guessing that the net effect/results would have been more positive to-date.

In general, I think that's probably true. I do think that the civil rights marches organized by churches in the 1960s did a lot of good in the United States.

When Christians hunger and thirst for righteousness, I think that includes hungering and thirsting against oppression and violence and corruption. I think it means standing up for the Samaritan woman and the leper and the poor and oppressed - we see this in Jesus and in the prophets.

I suspect we have to ask questions like this:

• Is this something God is calling me to do here and now? Even if it is not wrong, it might not be your calling.
• Is the cause righteous? Are the facts reliable?
• Is this for my own sake or for someone else's sake?
• Should I be building relationships or serving the other person instead of protesting, or should I be advocating for them in some way in addition to building relationships and serving?
• Am I leveraging prayer and unity and peaceful means and love? Is this characterized by the fruit of the Spirit or the fruit of the flesh?
• Is this bearing fruit over time?

[Bootstrap]

Is there a difference between mass protesting (linking arms with people of all stripes including sinners) and protesting as an individual like the OT prophets or like Paul in the NT?

What if everyone who protested in mass in 2020, would have written letters to their civil leaders, stood outside a state building with a sign, used a bullhorn, used social media, etc. all across America? And rather than attack the people they don't like, what if they would have addressed principles that should be followed?

I'm guessing that the net effect/results would have been more positive to-date.

I think people have used a LOT of social media. Mostly to tear down people they disagree with. I'm not sure we have learned to use social media well to promote what is good and right. Not even here on MN ...

[Bootstrap]

What if all professing Christians spent all their time loving God and loving their neighbours in real practical ways God calls us to? I think that light would have made much more of a difference. Trusting Him in prayer and action I think is infinitely and eternally more impactful than addressing political things at all. I don't think Christ called us to sway leaders in decisions whatsoever - our call is to submit to them. A personal call directly to them to repent of sin in person - yes. But letters, I don't think so.

I'm convinced that we, as Christians, often have different callings. I think Christians do need to advocate for refugees and prisoners and others, that means speaking with authorities. I also think we need to minister to them directly.