Josh wrote:Could we add “BMA/CMC/Mennonite Brethren/MC USA Psychology” to this thread title?
My parent's MC USA church in Oregon is diligently following all of the state directives on assembly, mask use, and so forth. I think they are still doing zoom meetings. I don't think they have any anti-mask activists or such.
But feel free to psychoanalyze them.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh wrote:...which is the far liberal wing of BMA.
Its barely 5am. Got barely a half-cup of coffee down. But this made me chuckle a bit. Never heard of a group having a "far liberal wing," yet I know what you mean by it
aussieandy wrote:When I read this post, I thought hmm...a more progressive mennonite bashing on ultra conservative and intermediate mennonites post. But then I also thought, Nationwide generally obeys the orders given to it by the government with regards covid-19 restrictions, even if we don't like them much. We grudgingly follow them, but it is hard on us.
So I do think it's just cultural and not as a result of how conservative they are.
joshuabgood is of Eastern, and later Pilgrim, origin, and spends most of his time here in MennoNet criticising anyone who is more conservative than his current alignment, which is the far liberal wing of BMA.
Just a minor factual correction. My parents were Eastern. They moved away to a location with no Eastern churches when I was 2. I grew up in a nonconference conservative church where I became a member. I was never a member of Pilgrum or Eastern.
I actually admire the conservative factions, my question more has to do with the psychology that is so rule following on the one hand and so much not so on the other. As for Christianity, I count them dear brothers and sisters in the Lord and would gladly commune with them.
Also, the BMA church where I am a member is well within the center of BMA. I havent been at the one to which you think I go for about 5 to 6 years.
joshuabgood wrote: . . . my question more has to do with the psychology that is so rule following on the one hand and so much not so on the other. . .
A secular illustration of this dichotomy:
During my short-lived career as a surgical technologist I was astounded at the disparity between strict adherence to sterile techniques in the OR and some commonly accepted behaviors that in many places of business would categorize as blatant hostility in the workplace (some surgeons under stress swore at assistants) and crass sexual harassment.
joshuabgood wrote:My aunt, who belonged to an Eastern church, died the other day. My wife and I attended the viewing last Thursday. I don't know what I was expecting, but there were 300 or so people packed (literally) into a reception center and nary a mask in sight and zero social distancing. Beings I am one who goes more for the spirit of the law than the letter of the law I don't particularly judge folks for practicing the PA governor's orders in a way that "works for them," but what was striking is that these groups of people major on conformity and "authority" down to the very nitty gritty everyday details. They all had the "regulation coat," the same style shoes for women/men, a clearly defined haircut and hair style etc.
What I am interested in is, what is the psychology that permits embracing conformity and submission to authority with regard to very small personal details (when it comes to local community norms - that is church rules in plain language), but is so comfortable flatly ignoring lawful orders? It really is amazing to me. I think the bottom line is they are only for submission when it comes to submitting to things "they want" but real submission is beyond even a general "spirit of the law" approach. To me it feels like an underlying arrogance that is super unhealthy. I am certain there are other inquiring minds in their groups that will see this obvious cognitive and social dissonance.
We submit to what we want to submit to...and not only that but we demand complete submission about very small details. But we will not submit to small details regulated by others. Do as I say not as I do...it actually makes me upset at one level. I think I could get on board if there were consistency either way. I myself don't wear a mask according to all the strictures. But to see it juxtaposed against an insistence of all the other rules seems confusing.
I'm one that believes in two things.
1. Covid-19 is the most overblown ridiculous thing meant to conform us, reduce us, separate us, and exploit us. Many of us have had it now, and it's a cold to a small flu, nothing more.
2. The governors if they issue "orders" may not harm any other biblical command. One of which is not forsaking the assembly of the saints. It ruins communications, ruins singing, ruins being most personable with people. It also has destroyed evangelism. The governors can forget it. I will not in any way, shape, or form allow a governor to make me go against scripture. Sitting in a pew, distanced, thinking all my brothers and sisters are a "threat" and scared, and not evangelizing works against my Christian faith completely.
Tell that to the people of Epherta Christian Fellowship. They just lost their longtime pastor. Our Bishop wound up in an ICU on a ventilator. I would think really hard before you dismiss something that has killed WAY to many of our people.
You can “believe” what you want. Evidence suggests otherwise.
joshuabgood wrote:My aunt, who belonged to an Eastern church, died the other day. My wife and I attended the viewing last Thursday. I don't know what I was expecting, but there were 300 or so people packed (literally) into a reception center and nary a mask in sight and zero social distancing. Beings I am one who goes more for the spirit of the law than the letter of the law I don't particularly judge folks for practicing the PA governor's orders in a way that "works for them," but what was striking is that these groups of people major on conformity and "authority" down to the very nitty gritty everyday details. They all had the "regulation coat," the same style shoes for women/men, a clearly defined haircut and hair style etc.
What I am interested in is, what is the psychology that permits embracing conformity and submission to authority with regard to very small personal details (when it comes to local community norms - that is church rules in plain language), but is so comfortable flatly ignoring lawful orders? It really is amazing to me. I think the bottom line is they are only for submission when it comes to submitting to things "they want" but real submission is beyond even a general "spirit of the law" approach. To me it feels like an underlying arrogance that is super unhealthy. I am certain there are other inquiring minds in their groups that will see this obvious cognitive and social dissonance.
We submit to what we want to submit to...and not only that but we demand complete submission about very small details. But we will not submit to small details regulated by others. Do as I say not as I do...it actually makes me upset at one level. I think I could get on board if there were consistency either way. I myself don't wear a mask according to all the strictures. But to see it juxtaposed against an insistence of all the other rules seems confusing.
I'm one that believes in two things.
1. Covid-19 is the most overblown ridiculous thing meant to conform us, reduce us, separate us, and exploit us. Many of us have had it now, and it's a cold to a small flu, nothing more.
2. The governors if they issue "orders" may not harm any other biblical command. One of which is not forsaking the assembly of the saints. It ruins communications, ruins singing, ruins being most personable with people. It also has destroyed evangelism. The governors can forget it. I will not in any way, shape, or form allow a governor to make me go against scripture. Sitting in a pew, distanced, thinking all my brothers and sisters are a "threat" and scared, and not evangelizing works against my Christian faith completely.
Tell that to the people of Epherta Christian Fellowship. They just lost their longtime pastor. Our Bishop wound up in an ICU on a ventilator. I would think really hard before you dismiss something that has killed WAY to many of our people.
You can “believe” what you want. Evidence suggests otherwise.
J.M.
People have been dying for a very long time.
Holmes County has nearly nonexistent mask compliance and yet their rates of cases and ICU use are half that of the next nearest similar county. Meanwhile California touts all kinds of regulations and lockdowns and is having a lot of new cases and people going to the ICU.
I suspect that the thinking behind the behavior of these groups involves factors such as the following.
1. These are voluntary gatherings of people who meet together constantly in close community, and who have long ago accepted any risk to their health that this entails.
2. The masks/social distancing rules are not being enforced by authorities in the context of religious gatherings (or in many other contexts). The state is not policing or enforcing the mandates other than in businesses, and even then only where there are complaints made by the public. The difference between these mandates and traffic laws, for instance, is that the state actually enforces traffic laws, where it expects businesses, organizations, and private citizens to do their own enforcement of the health mandates.
3. Many of the government officials who have created these health mandates have been seen hypocritically violating their own rules, indicating their level of seriousness about the mandates and degrading respect for regulatory authority. If in their private lives, when they believe they are away from the eye of the public or the media, they don't follow the rules, it is understandable that some members of the public will take the same nonchalant approach.
4. The existence of the virus as well as other diseases is seen as a fact of life that, while reasonable precautions should be taken, can not be eradicated by such things as wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart from other people for the rest of our lives.
I think the primary reason comes down to enforcement. These groups would likely not want to go to jail or pay fines for violating these mandates if that is what it came to. Like many other people, they have realized that the state simply does not intend to enforce wearing masks, and so they see these mandates as being in a different category from normal government rules and regulations. If real enforcement existed, most of them would probably wear the masks in these gatherings.
mike wrote:I suspect that the thinking behind the behavior of these groups involves factors such as the following.
1. These are voluntary gatherings of people who meet together constantly in close community, and who have long ago accepted any risk to their health that this entails.
2. The masks/social distancing rules are not being enforced by authorities in the context of religious gatherings (or in many other contexts). The state is not policing or enforcing the mandates other than in businesses, and even then only where there are complaints made by the public. The difference between these mandates and traffic laws, for instance, is that the state actually enforces traffic laws, where it expects businesses, organizations, and private citizens to do their own enforcement of the health mandates.
3. Many of the government officials who have created these health mandates have been seen hypocritically violating their own rules, indicating their level of seriousness about the mandates and degrading respect for regulatory authority. If in their private lives, when they believe they are away from the eye of the public or the media, they don't follow the rules, it is understandable that some members of the public will take the same nonchalant approach.
4. The existence of the virus as well as other diseases is seen as a fact of life that, while reasonable precautions should be taken, can not be eradicated by such things as wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart from other people for the rest of our lives.
I think the primary reason comes down to enforcement. These groups would likely not want to go to jail or pay fines for violating these mandates if that is what it came to. Like many other people, they have realized that the state simply does not intend to enforce wearing masks, and so they see these mandates as being in a different category from normal government rules and regulations. If real enforcement existed, most of them would probably wear the masks in these gatherings.
That makes sense on the noncompliance on the state side but how does the cohere with the compliance that isn't "enforced" with fines, say the regulation coat.
joshuabgood wrote:That makes sense on the noncompliance on the state side but how does the cohere with the compliance that isn't "enforced" with fines, say the regulation coat.
Because church regulations such as the plain coat have the weight of proven tradition supported by the collective wisdom of the church over time, or of the wisdom of church leaders who look out for the spiritual wellbeing of the people. And of course those rules are actually enforced by church discipline...
I suspect part of the answer to JBG's question is identity and belonging. The clothing restrictions are the buy in price for belonging in a group they respect. Mask wearing is likely a marker for belonging in an unwanted or disrespected group.
