Outsider wrote:
Let me ask you this: who were the two witnesses, killed in Jerusalem and whose death was celebrated by all the people in the world giving presents to each other?
I don't know, do you? There are some things that history has not kept.
Seriously GC???
Do you? There is plenty of speculation based on characteristics, but no historical information, whether you are Preterist or Futurist or Amillennialist or Historicist.
Can you definitively say who they were/are/will be?
gcdonner wrote:
I don't know, do you? There are some things that history has not kept.
Seriously GC???
Do you? There is plenty of speculation based on characteristics, but no historical information, whether you are Preterist or Futurist or Amillennialist or Historicist.
Can you definitively say who they were/are/will be?
Well they weren't yet. I cannot definitively say who they will be there is strong belief in who they will be but I can assure you if it already happened they wouldn't have left that little detail out of church history (which is no small detail) there are plenty of letters from early church martyrs that would make it clear that Christ has not returned yet. Martyrs who themselves sat under the teachings of Apostle John.
Do you? There is plenty of speculation based on characteristics, but no historical information, whether you are Preterist or Futurist or Amillennialist or Historicist.
Can you definitively say who they were/are/will be?
Well they weren't yet. I cannot definitively say who they will be there is strong belief in who they will be but I can assure you if it already happened they wouldn't have left that little detail out of church history (which is no small detail) there are plenty of letters from early church martyrs that would make it clear that Christ has not returned yet. Martyrs who themselves sat under the teachings of Apostle John.
If you can't say who they will be, why is it hard to understand that those who may have witnessed these "witnesses" just didn't record it or didn't see it themselves. You are arguing from silence, as much as I am declaring my ignorance because of the very silence you want to react against.
Valerie wrote:Aren't you proud of me George I've been so quiet through this discussion?
regarding when the book of Revelation was written:
My Orthodox Study Bible States this: the vast majority of scholars hold that Revelation was composed during the fierce persecution in the latter part of the reign of Domitian, A.D.81 to 96 when John was in the exile on the Isle of Patmos. Of course they did not state which scholars this majority is. However since the Orthodox Church dates back to the time of the Apostles and they are the ones that canonized which books became our Bible I trust their knowledge on this. I would want to point out one little fact regarding the dates and that is in Revelation chapter 2 when Jesus speaks of Antipas, his faithful martyr in verse 13, and to pass was Bishop of Pergamos and was martyred in 8092 by being burned to death in a heated bronze bowl having witnessed before the Roman governor that Jesus is Lord. Because of that reference alone and with it being known when Antipas was martyred in A.D. 92, it gives support to the Orthodox statement that most scholars believe in the later date of Revelation being written, and I have read that Apostle John lived to be approximately 95 years old.
Regarding Anitpas, your dates are quite a ways off and in fact point to the early date for the seeing of the Revelation:
According to Eastern Orthodox traditions, according to the Commentary on the Apocalypse of Andreas of Caesarea, believe Saint Antipas to be the Antipas referred to in the Book of Revelation, Revelation 2:13, as the verse says: "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth." According to Christian tradition, John the Apostle ordained Antipas as bishop of Pergamon during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero. The traditional account goes on to say Antipas was martyred during the reign of Nero (54-68),[3] by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar for casting out demons worshiped by the local population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipas_of_Pergamum
Valerie wrote:Aren't you proud of me George I've been so quiet through this discussion?
regarding when the book of Revelation was written:
My Orthodox Study Bible States this: the vast majority of scholars hold that Revelation was composed during the fierce persecution in the latter part of the reign of Domitian, A.D.81 to 96 when John was in the exile on the Isle of Patmos. Of course they did not state which scholars this majority is. However since the Orthodox Church dates back to the time of the Apostles and they are the ones that canonized which books became our Bible I trust their knowledge on this. I would want to point out one little fact regarding the dates and that is in Revelation chapter 2 when Jesus speaks of Antipas, his faithful martyr in verse 13, and to pass was Bishop of Pergamos and was martyred in 8092 by being burned to death in a heated bronze bowl having witnessed before the Roman governor that Jesus is Lord. Because of that reference alone and with it being known when Antipas was martyred in A.D. 92, it gives support to the Orthodox statement that most scholars believe in the later date of Revelation being written, and I have read that Apostle John lived to be approximately 95 years old.
Regarding Anitpas, your dates are quite a ways off and in fact point to the early date for the seeing of the Revelation:
According to Eastern Orthodox traditions, according to the Commentary on the Apocalypse of Andreas of Caesarea, believe Saint Antipas to be the Antipas referred to in the Book of Revelation, Revelation 2:13, as the verse says: "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth." According to Christian tradition, John the Apostle ordained Antipas as bishop of Pergamon during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero. The traditional account goes on to say Antipas was martyred during the reign of Nero (54-68),[3] by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar for casting out demons worshiped by the local population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipas_of_Pergamum
Valerie wrote:Aren't you proud of me George I've been so quiet through this discussion?
regarding when the book of Revelation was written:
My Orthodox Study Bible States this: the vast majority of scholars hold that Revelation was composed during the fierce persecution in the latter part of the reign of Domitian, A.D.81 to 96 when John was in the exile on the Isle of Patmos. Of course they did not state which scholars this majority is. However since the Orthodox Church dates back to the time of the Apostles and they are the ones that canonized which books became our Bible I trust their knowledge on this. I would want to point out one little fact regarding the dates and that is in Revelation chapter 2 when Jesus speaks of Antipas, his faithful martyr in verse 13, and to pass was Bishop of Pergamos and was martyred in 8092 by being burned to death in a heated bronze bowl having witnessed before the Roman governor that Jesus is Lord. Because of that reference alone and with it being known when Antipas was martyred in A.D. 92, it gives support to the Orthodox statement that most scholars believe in the later date of Revelation being written, and I have read that Apostle John lived to be approximately 95 years old.
Regarding Anitpas, your dates are quite a ways off and in fact point to the early date for the seeing of the Revelation:
According to Eastern Orthodox traditions, according to the Commentary on the Apocalypse of Andreas of Caesarea, believe Saint Antipas to be the Antipas referred to in the Book of Revelation, Revelation 2:13, as the verse says: "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth." According to Christian tradition, John the Apostle ordained Antipas as bishop of Pergamon during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero. The traditional account goes on to say Antipas was martyred during the reign of Nero (54-68),[3] by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar for casting out demons worshiped by the local population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipas_of_Pergamum
gcdonner wrote: Can't see or won't see? There was a song popular many years ago now that said, "There is none so blind as he who will not see."
Let me ask you this: who were the two witnesses, killed in Jerusalem and whose death was celebrated by all the people in the world giving presents to each other?
I don't know, do you? There are some things that history has not kept.
I don't think the events described in relation to the two witnesses would be something the church would have forgotten, as we have a written record from the time of Christ onwards.
" 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations [d]will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And [e]they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven."
It doesn't fit with your notion that it's all over and done. Some has come to pass- I surely believe that. But I think there are things yet to come. I don't know who the two witnesses will be but I'm sure they haven't arrived at this time.
Outsider wrote:
Let me ask you this: who were the two witnesses, killed in Jerusalem and whose death was celebrated by all the people in the world giving presents to each other?
I don't know, do you? There are some things that history has not kept.
I don't think the events described in relation to the two witnesses would be something the church would have forgotten, as we have a written record from the time of Christ onwards.
" 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations [d]will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And [e]they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven."
It doesn't fit with your notion that it's all over and done. Some has come to pass- I surely believe that. But I think there are things yet to come. I don't know who the two witnesses will be but I'm sure they haven't arrived at this time.
Ah, timing is everything. The church had already vacated the city of Jerusalem before the major upheavals began and were safely on the other side of Jordan in Pella. That is why none of this would have been witnessed by the church. Revelation predicts their escape and history records that not one Christian died in the "Great Tribulation", while more than 1 million Jews did. BTW, we don't have continuous written record from the time of Christ on to the second century. There is a large gap between AD70 and the turn of the century. This is when the Jerusalem church was in hiding and the apostles had all died, including John. Some of the traditional stories we have of John are not to be believed since most of them are anecdotal, imo. A reading of Josephus is instructive in this area of history, since he wrote entirely after the fall of Jerusalem.
gcdonner wrote:
Ah, timing is everything. The church had already vacated the city of Jerusalem before the major upheavals began and were safely on the other side of Jordan in Pella. That is why none of this would have been witnessed by the church. Revelation predicts their escape and history records that not one Christian died in the "Great Tribulation", while more than 1 million Jews did. BTW, we don't have continuous written record from the time of Christ on to the second century. There is a large gap between AD70 and the turn of the century. This is when the Jerusalem church was in hiding and the apostles had all died, including John. Some of the traditional stories we have of John are not to be believed since most of them are anecdotal, imo. A reading of Josephus is instructive in this area of history, since he wrote entirely after the fall of Jerusalem.
"In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven."
All of the city which weren't killed "were afraid & gave glory to the God of heaven." Lots of potential witnesses. And as per one of your earlier posts re the Romans razing Jerusalem, there weren't converted, were they?
gcdonner wrote:
Ah, timing is everything. The church had already vacated the city of Jerusalem before the major upheavals began and were safely on the other side of Jordan in Pella. That is why none of this would have been witnessed by the church. Revelation predicts their escape and history records that not one Christian died in the "Great Tribulation", while more than 1 million Jews did. BTW, we don't have continuous written record from the time of Christ on to the second century. There is a large gap between AD70 and the turn of the century. This is when the Jerusalem church was in hiding and the apostles had all died, including John. Some of the traditional stories we have of John are not to be believed since most of them are anecdotal, imo. A reading of Josephus is instructive in this area of history, since he wrote entirely after the fall of Jerusalem.
"In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven."
All of the city which weren't killed "were afraid & gave glory to the God of heaven." Lots of potential witnesses. And as per one of your earlier posts re the Romans razing Jerusalem, there weren't converted, were they?
I'm sure there were lots of witnesses, but none of them Christians and the vast majority died and those that didn't were taken away captive and put to work in the copper mines and other places. I doubt there were many people writing history at that time. We have 3 or 4 that I know of, and none of them would have been inside the city. Eusebius, the first recognized Christian historian wrote nearly 300 years later and his source of eye witness to what happened at Jerusalem was primarily Josephus. There were no "inside story" accounts preserved from that tribulation period, which, btw, was the tribulation that Jesus predicted in Matt 24, Mk 13, & Lk 21. The "thee/you" that Jesus is speaking to was 4 of his disciples, not the whole 12, only 4 and he was referring to them and not to us when he made his predictions of "when ye shall see..." he was speaking to Peter, James, John & Andrew. (MK 13:3,4). Think about it. A text taken out of context becomes a pretext...