Adherence to Civil Laws

[Ken]

Thought experiment: speed limits.

Most people speed, but they speed within limits. I think there's a difference between these cases:

Speed Limit: 35
Driver's Speed: 37

Speed Limit: 35
Driver's Speed: 75

Speed Limit: 70
Driver's Speed: 75

If the police arrest people going 70 in a 35 mph speed zone, I think the law has served a useful purpose.

Of course they serve a useful purpose. Do you want a 75 mph speed limit or no speed limit at all in front of your child's school? Most people slow down in school zones so we don't have to have police out there actively enforcing the law. But around here we sometimes get teens speeding by the local elementary schools before and after school. And when it becomes a problem the local cops will park out there, start writing tickets, the word gets out, and the problem goes away, Until a new crop of teen drivers starts to push the limits again in a couple years and we have to do it all over again.

Policing is an endless game of whack-a-mole and setting priorities. If people didn't voluntarily follow most laws most of the time, it would take a Nazi or Soviet-style police state to make everyone comply. And no one wants that.

[RZehr]

Do many Mennonites also feel the same way about Church laws and teachings? It's OK as long as they don't get caught?

There is at least two ways that Mennonites view church standards.
One views them as simply something that they have agreed to keep or obey as part of being a member of that church. Then there is also a certain view of church standards that says that standards are to be considered merely as guidelines or something to strive for, but there is not necessarily any real problem with not measuring up to them.
Then there is people who are just hoping not to get caught.

In church who is in a state of flux, or has determined to move in another direction but has not taken time to update their standards it is common to find standards that are not being adhered to.

[RZehr]

Do I always follow perfectly every law? Absolutely not. But I’ll not justify myself by saying that it isn’t being enforced on me so it doesn’t matter.

I assume you tried to follow the mandates of Oregon related to coronavirus?

Pretty much so far. Not perfectly either. About the same way I operate with other laws of the land.

[Bootstrap]

Policing is an endless game of whack-a-mole and setting priorities. If people didn't voluntarily follow most laws most of the time, it would take a Nazi or Soviet-style police state to make everyone comply. And no one wants that.

I was surprised how lax many East Germans were about the law. Throughout Eastern Europe, the black market was huge, illegal money changing was everywhere, otherwise respectable people did do a little petty theft. In East Germany, most had no respect for their government. If you left a packet of diapers in your car in Poland, it would disappear - we had that experience in Poland.

Even in a police state, if there is no sense of common good, right and wrong, people will commit crimes they think they can get away with.

[Ken]

Policing is an endless game of whack-a-mole and setting priorities. If people didn't voluntarily follow most laws most of the time, it would take a Nazi or Soviet-style police state to make everyone comply. And no one wants that.

I was surprised how lax many East Germans were about the law. Throughout Eastern Europe, the black market was huge, illegal money changing was everywhere, otherwise respectable people did do a little petty theft. In East Germany, most had no respect for their government. If you left a packet of diapers in your car in Poland, it would disappear - we had that experience in Poland.

Even in a police state, if there is no sense of common good, right and wrong, people will commit crimes they think they can get away with.

Interesting. But I expect by the time you visited (in the late 80s?) it really wasn't so much of a police state as a country under Soviet occupation. Same thing in Poland. As is demonstrated by how quickly the regime collapsed and vanished as soon as the Soviet tanks were gone. Which is probably a lot different from living in Berlin or Moscow in say 1941 when the Gestapo and KGB were truly feared.

[Ernie]

No, I think we should keep whatever church standards we agree to keep.

That is different from civil laws. I never agreed to keep the civil laws. I was born here and I accept the rules for living here. I do try to comply with civil laws that are expected of citizens.

And those who are born in the church where the cost of leaving the church is too high?

That is an unfortunate place to be. I think it should be easy to leave a church officially, but hard to leave because of the love that will be missed.

Do you follow all the rules in another country? or just what you think is expected?

What I think is expected. (unless of course if it violates the higher laws of God as you mentioned.)

Why is it wrong in your eyes to follow what is expected by the church rather then the specifics specified in the standards?

I didn't try to say that. I think a person should try to do what is expected by the church. If there is something in the standards that is not expected, I think the person should talk to the leaders or the church about it. I think what you did with the photography thing was great.

I assume you tried to follow the mandates of Oregon related to coronavirus?

Are you trying to justify yourself? or discredit RZehr?

Neither. I was curious. I know many Plain Anabaptists who don't think Christians need to follow the mandates of the governor, and after reading RZehr, I assumed he was not one of those and I wanted to verify.

[Ernie]

Do I always follow perfectly every law? Absolutely not. But I’ll not justify myself by saying that it isn’t being enforced on me so it doesn’t matter.

I assume you tried to follow the mandates of Oregon related to coronavirus?

Pretty much so far. Not perfectly either. About the same way I operate with other laws of the land.

Same here.

[Ernie]

There seems to be different categories of laws/ordinances. Not sure that the Apostle Peter intended that we submit to all of the following...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude

[Soloist]

There seems to be different categories of laws/ordinances. Not sure that the Apostle Peter intended that we submit to all of the following...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude

Since you are wanting to argue the Scriptural intention, what did the early church say? or are you making an argument for your position with subjective understanding?

Agree or disagree: "if its not wrong to obey, then its wrong to disobey"

[DrWojo]

There seems to be different categories of laws/ordinances. Not sure that the Apostle Peter intended that we submit to all of the following...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude

Since you are wanting to argue the Scriptural intention, what did the early church say? or are you making an argument for your position with subjective understanding?

Agree or disagree: "if its not wrong to obey, then its wrong to disobey"

In my opinion I say, “Yes - if it’s not wrong to obey, then it’s wrong to disobey, but that does depend on what a person’s convictions are on said ‘civil law,’ or mandate or whatever is in question.” Because adherence to agendas being forced upon segments of the population will have consequences. Recent examples are being forced to forsake the assembling of the saints together for worship, or limiting it to 50, in which freedom of worship is specifically allowed according to the Constitution, but then allowing the gathering of gamblers and placing no restrictions on ‘Medical weed’ dispensaries should give any Awake Christian pause whether to blindly obey or not. The same could be said for ‘bearing false witness’ to the COVID hype by wearing a mask.

Also, just what is it about Mennonite’s obsession on making sure none of their constituents get a wild hair to go vote? As I recall this past Remnant magazine had around 3 out of 12 articles centered on anti-American focus on why they feel it’s evil to vote.

Lastly, carry the logic of ‘We Anabaptists are so special, we’re exempt from . . . _______.’ and you have another Jeriah Mast case, or Amish Bishop covering up another case of abuse/molestation, etc. Need I continue the rant?