Amish Bishop Gets Probation

[Ernie]

The Amish, like everyone else, know full well that child sexual abuse is a crime. And they know full well that crimes should be reported to the authorities.

That is a little too strong Ken. Some of us did not know this until the last few years, and I think there are some that still don't know this. There is also lack of understanding as to what all is considered sexual abuse of a criminal nature.

[Ken]

The Amish, like everyone else, know full well that child sexual abuse is a crime. And they know full well that crimes should be reported to the authorities.

That is a little too strong Ken. Some of us did not know this until the last few years, and I think there are some that still don't know this.

Really? Up until a few years ago you thought it was legal to rape or molest children?

[temporal1]

Ken:
Oh please. ..

believe it or not, i was not addressing you in any way, not agreeing or disagreeing.
i was impressed with Neto’s posts and wanted to respond to them in appreciation.

The Amish, like everyone else, know full well that child sexual abuse is a crime. And they know full well that crimes should be reported to the authorities.

That is a little too strong Ken. Some of us did not know this until the last few years, and I think there are some that still don't know this.

Really? Up until a few years ago you thought it was legal to rape or molest children?

well. i recall listening to Pope Benedict respond “very softly” to the problem of priest sexual abuse of children .. that may have been late 1990’s, early 2000’s. i was not accustomed to listening to the Pope, but wanted to hear this particular statement.

i was shocked and disappointed. (from my bad memory) i believe he made some comparison with “all other sins.” i recall wondering “if Popes had children” if this might better impress upon them the nature of predatory sins against the innocent+vulnerable.

[Judas Maccabeus]

The Amish, like everyone else, know full well that child sexual abuse is a crime. And they know full well that crimes should be reported to the authorities.

That is a little too strong Ken. Some of us did not know this until the last few years, and I think there are some that still don't know this.

Really? Up until a few years ago you thought it was legal to rape or molest children?

Mandatory reporting laws are still fairly new. I am a mandated reporter, and I still have never seen EXACT guidance on what is and what is not from the state. Some things clearly are, but some things, particularly of a "discipline" nature are unclear.

My church has done far better, as it has done some formal training.

J.M.

[Ken]

Ken:
Oh please. ..

believe it or not, i was not addressing you in any way, not agreeing or disagreeing.
i was impressed with Neto’s posts and wanted to respond to them in appreciation.

That is a little too strong Ken. Some of us did not know this until the last few years, and I think there are some that still don't know this.

Really? Up until a few years ago you thought it was legal to rape or molest children?

well. i recall listening to Pope Benedict respond “very softly” to the problem of priest sexual abuse of children .. that may have been late 1990’s, early 2000’s. i was not accustomed to listening to the Pope, but wanted to hear this particular statement.

i was shocked and disappointed. (from my bad memory) i believe he made some comparison with “all other sins.” i recall wondering if Popes had children if this might better impress upon them the nature of predatory sins against the innocent+vulnerable.

Well, I would agree that there was a seriously troubling degree of "moral relatively" to the Catholic Church's response to child abuse. I remember some years ago watching some high level Catholic cleric (the Cardinal from Boston I think) on Nightline or some national new show. And he was giving this long justification about how the Catholic church's understanding of the issue had evolved over time as the explanation for why they had covered up decades of child abuse. And my Catholic-educated wife (who had attended Catholic schools in Chile from Kindergarten through university) was absolutely livid and white with anger. The notion that the Catholic church, which preaches moral absolutism on every other single topic, was excusing themselves for their own crimes on this topic by claiming moral relativism and "evolving" understandings was just too much for her. Deuteronomy and Leviticus call for stoning of rapists. And in Genesis 34 the sons of Jacob slaughtered and plundered an entire city when Shechem defiled their sister. That seems pretty absolute. The bible is far more definitive about rape and sexual assault than it is about many of the other issues that the Catholic church takes an absolutist position on.

I honestly don't think anyone is really confused about whether it is legally or morally OK to rape and molest children. Not in the Amish community. Not in Catholic parishes. Not anywhere. And especially not men in positions of authority.

[Valerie]

.. If this seems harsh and unreasonable, let it be clearly understood that I am adamant about protecting my wife, my daughters, and the young women around me. Yes, I am finally finished. Thanks for letting me vent.

.. please remember boys and young men can be victims, too.
we protected and prepared our son equally as our daughter to beware of predators.

Yep! I know a man who was an Amish boy, abused when he was 8. Won't talk about it doesn't need or want to share details. But it happened.

[Ken]

That is a little too strong Ken. Some of us did not know this until the last few years, and I think there are some that still don't know this.

Really? Up until a few years ago you thought it was legal to rape or molest children?

Mandatory reporting laws are still fairly new. I am a mandated reporter, and I still have never seen EXACT guidance on what is and what is not from the state. Some things clearly are, but some things, particularly of a "discipline" nature are unclear.

My church has done far better, as it has done some formal training.

J.M.

But there is a difference between mandatory reporting of child abuse and covering up the crime of rape or child molestation.

As a teacher I'm covered by mandatory reporting laws. And the basic rule is, when in doubt, report. You are not expected to be an expert, or an investigator. Or to decide for yourself whether something suspicious rises to the level of abuse. That is the responsibility of others. The child abuse laws are very broad-sweeping and cover everything from failing to feed and clothe your children adequately to mental abuse to simple neglect. Mostly they don't deal with sexual abuse at all, but simple neglect and physical abuse. That is very different from rape and child molestation which are, and always have been, actual crimes on their own right.

In this case, two men brought their concerns to the Bishop who didn't just "fail to report" He actively discouraged others from doing so in an attempt to cover up what he knew to be a crime. And the whole scheme came to light when they went ahead and reported the crime anyway.

Pick a different crime. Say murder or kidnapping. Would you have any confusion about whether it is your obligation to report those crimes to the police if you had knowledge of them? I think not.

[temporal1]

.. If this seems harsh and unreasonable, let it be clearly understood that I am adamant about protecting my wife, my daughters, and the young women around me. Yes, I am finally finished. Thanks for letting me vent.

.. please remember boys and young men can be victims, too.
we protected and prepared our son equally as our daughter to beware of predators.

Yep! I know a man who was an Amish boy, abused when he was 8. Won't talk about it doesn't need or want to share details. But it happened.

boys are specially vulnerable in various ways, one way that recurs is they can be trusted in the direct+private care of predators, like the Mast case, Boy Scouts, etc. add to that the social and peer pressure to “keep quiet, don’t be a sissy,” etc.

i was born into a world where boys had much more freedom than girls, most did not think of boys being victims. i learned differently by the time our son was born! so. we made sure he knew how to prevent getting into bad situations. we tried.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Really? Up until a few years ago you thought it was legal to rape or molest children?

Mandatory reporting laws are still fairly new. I am a mandated reporter, and I still have never seen EXACT guidance on what is and what is not from the state. Some things clearly are, but some things, particularly of a "discipline" nature are unclear.

My church has done far better, as it has done some formal training.

J.M.

But there is a difference between mandatory reporting of child abuse and covering up the crime of rape or child molestation.

As a teacher I'm covered by mandatory reporting laws. And the basic rule is, when in doubt, report. You are not expected to be an expert, or an investigator. Or to decide for yourself whether something suspicious rises to the level of abuse. That is the responsibility of others. The child abuse laws are very broad-sweeping and cover everything from failing to feed and clothe your children adequately to mental abuse to simple neglect. Mostly they don't deal with sexual abuse at all, but simple neglect and physical abuse. That is very different from rape and child molestation which are, and always have been, actual crimes on their own right.

In this case, two men brought their concerns to the Bishop who didn't just "fail to report" He actively discouraged others from doing so in an attempt to cover up what he knew to be a crime. And the whole scheme came to light when they went ahead and reported the crime anyway.

Pick a different crime. Say murder or kidnapping. Would you have any confusion about whether it is your obligation to report those crimes to the police if you had knowledge of them? I think not.

Of course not....but would the parent that spanked their child and caused a bruise? How big of a bruise would you report? Or would the infant who was dropped when their older sister picked him up, and lost grip. Or the child that showed up to sunday school, having not been fed that am. I have seen all of these in my former evangelical church, and I reported none of it. I did make sure one of the teachers fed the child, and turned it over to the deaconesses, one was a teacher, another a nurse. That is a problem that the church could solve better than a social worker. I regarded all of the above as accidents, or problems we could solve.

This bishop likely needs "educational" punishment. I would not sent him to jail. Old ways die slowly, and sometimes training is needed.

J.M.

[Ken]

Mandatory reporting laws are still fairly new. I am a mandated reporter, and I still have never seen EXACT guidance on what is and what is not from the state. Some things clearly are, but some things, particularly of a "discipline" nature are unclear.

My church has done far better, as it has done some formal training.

J.M.

But there is a difference between mandatory reporting of child abuse and covering up the crime of rape or child molestation.

As a teacher I'm covered by mandatory reporting laws. And the basic rule is, when in doubt, report. You are not expected to be an expert, or an investigator. Or to decide for yourself whether something suspicious rises to the level of abuse. That is the responsibility of others. The child abuse laws are very broad-sweeping and cover everything from failing to feed and clothe your children adequately to mental abuse to simple neglect. Mostly they don't deal with sexual abuse at all, but simple neglect and physical abuse. That is very different from rape and child molestation which are, and always have been, actual crimes on their own right.

In this case, two men brought their concerns to the Bishop who didn't just "fail to report" He actively discouraged others from doing so in an attempt to cover up what he knew to be a crime. And the whole scheme came to light when they went ahead and reported the crime anyway.

Pick a different crime. Say murder or kidnapping. Would you have any confusion about whether it is your obligation to report those crimes to the police if you had knowledge of them? I think not.

Of course not....but would the parent that spanked their child and caused a bruise? How big of a bruise would you report? Or would the infant who was dropped when their older sister picked him up, and lost grip. Or the child that showed up to sunday school, having not been fed that am. I have seen all of these in my former evangelical church, and I reported none of it. I did make sure one of the teachers fed the child, and turned it over to the deaconesses, one was a teacher, another a nurse. That is a problem that the church could solve better than a social worker. I regarded all of the above as accidents, or problems we could solve.

This bishop likely needs "educational" punishment. I would not sent him to jail. Old ways die slowly, and sometimes training is needed.

J.M.

That's why I'm drawing a distinction between child abuse and child rape or molestation. They are not the same thing at all. One is a very broad and ambiguous category. The other is a crime under all circumstances.

But yes, abuse reporting can be difficult. I've done it twice in 15 years. I never found out what became of either case. In both cases students came to me with concerns about another student who they suspected was being victimized and I passed it up the chain of command. In one case the problem was a violent alcoholic parent. In the other case it was a possibly abusive boyfriend. Neither was sexual in nature.