Amish Bishop Gets Probation

[Ken]

The Amish, like everyone else, know full well that child sexual abuse is a crime. . .

I’m interested in hearing more about your experience(s) with the Amish that lead you to this conclusion.

In my community, when child sexual abuse is exposed, it’s typically simply termed “sin.” In extreme cases the perpetrator might be excommunicated. More typically the offender is merely required to engage in some type of “repentance” steps as outlined by the church.

Regrettably in some cases of unexposed child abuse, it’s chalked up as male privilege.

(As always, one size never fits all, and my above observations are generalities.)

I would invite you to do a survey of the Amish community (or your own community) and find out how many of the believe that it is actually LEGAL to sexually abuse and rape children. What percentage of Amish men do you think actually believe that it is perfectly legal to rape children? What percentage of men in your community do you think actually believe that it is perfectly legal to rape children? What is your best guess?

Many of them (especially those in power) may not think the laws apply to them because they answer to a higher law or something. But they know that child rape and sexual abuse is a crime. In this case the Bishop in question didn't just ignore the crime. He actively attempted to discourage others from reporting it. If he was unaware that there was a crime, why try to cover it up? He knew.

Let's put it in another context. The Amish also know that property theft is both a sin and a crime. But they may not choose to report an incidence of theft in the Amish community because they may wish to deal with it themselves. But that doesn't negate the fact that they really do know that property theft is a crime and against the law.

We are talking about intelligent Americans who have been living in this country for 300 years, and who fully understand the outside world even if they choose not to be a part of it. We aren't talking about some stone-age tribe in the Amazon who truly does not understand the modern world.

[Neto]

.... We aren't talking about some stone-age tribe in the Amazon who truly does not understand the modern world.

While I would never use the term "stone-age" (if I were as sensitive as some Americans seem to be, I would be "deeply offended" by this, and might even go burn down some buildings or something.... ), I did live with an isolated tribe (in the Amazon, even) for 17 years, and will just say that they also know that rape is wrong. It is written on their inner being by the Creator. And the penalty would generally be much worse in a culture like that than in Western society, at least for the perp.

But in relation to the case in point - it would be well to realize that exposure also brings more suffering to the victim, and they are now twice victimized. I know a few Amish girls here who were abused, and I have seen how they have been 'marked' when the story came out. Yes, the perp went to prison (although I am not aware of any punishment coming against those who attempted to cover it up), but one of these girls whom I have known for many years, her boyfriend at the time walked away when he found out. And that breaks my heart. I suppose you could just say that he didn't deserve her, and that better rid of such a fickle guy, but she was not guilty, so where are the ones who will cherish and respect these whom God has declared clean? This requires a deep change in cultural attitudes, and unfortunately you cannot legislate that. (We are, by the way, all broken in some way or another.)

[TruthSeeker]

In my community, when child sexual abuse is exposed, it’s typically simply termed “sin.” In extreme cases the perpetrator might be excommunicated. More typically the offender is merely required to engage in some type of “repentance” steps as outlined by the church.

Regrettably in some cases of unexposed child abuse, it’s chalked up as male privilege.

Male privilege?? Can you say more about how this idea is conveyed? Would adultery be handled differently than child sexual abuse? If so, how?

Great Questions!
From my perspective, male privilege is conveyed in the form of extreme authoritarian perspectives on headship/submission. Women and children are frequently "at the unquestioning service" of the adult males. And, as I believe Mayberry referenced, at times males in this belief system keep one another empowered by covering for each other.

Unfortunately, I can't answer the questions on how adultery is handled as I've not been privy to any such cases in the Amish Community

[TruthSeeker]

I would invite you to do a survey of the Amish community (or your own community) and find out how many of the believe that it is actually LEGAL to sexually abuse and rape children. What percentage of Amish men do you think actually believe that it is perfectly legal to rape children? What percentage of men in your community do you think actually believe that it is perfectly legal to rape children? What is your best guess?

Many of them (especially those in power) may not think the laws apply to them because they answer to a higher law or something. But they know that child rape and sexual abuse is a crime. In this case the Bishop in question didn't just ignore the crime. He actively attempted to discourage others from reporting it. If he was unaware that there was a crime, why try to cover it up? He knew.

Let's put it in another context. The Amish also know that property theft is both a sin and a crime. But they may not choose to report an incidence of theft in the Amish community because they may wish to deal with it themselves. But that doesn't negate the fact that they really do know that property theft is a crime and against the law.

We are talking about intelligent Americans who have been living in this country for 300 years, and who fully understand the outside world even if they choose not to be a part of it. We aren't talking about some stone-age tribe in the Amazon who truly does not understand the modern world.

Great points, Ken! At the risk of sounding crass: I'm acquainted with a former manager of the radiology department of a local hospital. She could recount numerous instances of various Amish fathers who had impregnated a daughter bringing the resulting child with deformities into the hospital for x-rays.

How does one tease that apart? What does the act of boldly bringing the product of rape to a medical extablishment convey? If the perpetrator thought someone would call the authorities to report "the crime," would they have brought the child into the hospital?

[Ken]

.... We aren't talking about some stone-age tribe in the Amazon who truly does not understand the modern world.

While I would never use the term "stone-age" (if I were as sensitive as some Americans seem to be, I would be "deeply offended" by this, and might even go burn down some buildings or something.... ), I did live with an isolated tribe (in the Amazon, even) for 17 years, and will just say that they also know that rape is wrong. It is written on their inner being by the Creator. And the penalty would generally be much worse in a culture like that than in Western society, at least for the perp.

But in relation to the case in point - it would be well to realize that exposure also brings more suffering to the victim, and they are now twice victimized. I know a few Amish girls here who were abused, and I have seen how they have been 'marked' when the story came out. Yes, the perp went to prison (although I am not aware of any punishment coming against those who attempted to cover it up), but one of these girls whom I have known for many years, her boyfriend at the time walked away when he found out. And that breaks my heart. I suppose you could just say that he didn't deserve her, and that better rid of such a fickle guy, but she was not guilty, so where are the ones who will cherish and respect these whom God has declared clean? This requires a deep change in cultural attitudes, and unfortunately you cannot legislate that. (We are, by the way, all broken in some way or another.)

OK, poor choice of words on my part. But there is kind of a thread among some in the Menno community who treat the Amish as some sort of fragile pre-modern (is that better?) tribe that needs to be protected from the outside world. When in fact they are just as American as anyone else and have been living here for longer than most. I don't buy it. The Amish I have known are smart and savvy and know exactly what choices they are making and why. They are not confused by or ignorant of American laws and customs.

If the Amish ostracize victims as you describe, then that is a sickness in their culture that THEY need to address. But as we all know, brushing it under the table and covering it up just to protect the victims from gossip is exactly the wrong approach to take. That is how we got here in the first place. And that is how you perpetrate the cycle of abuse over generations.

But again, I contend they do as well as anyone else what is right and wrong and what things are crimes. That those in authority might decide to defy the law or determine that they are answering to a higher law and therefore exempting themselves doesn't mean they are confused or ignorant.

If you were to poll the adult men and leaders in any Amish or conservative AB community with the following question, what do you honestly think the response percentages would be?

CHOOSE WHICH ANSWER YOU THINK IS TRUE:

___ It is legal to rape and sexually abuse children
____ It is illegal to rape and sexually abuse children

I honestly doubt you will find a single Amish or conservative AB man anywhere, who sincerely believes that it is perfectly legal to rape and sexually abuse children. And especially not one in a position of authority within the church.

So yes, they do know it is actually a crime as well as a sin.

[Ken]

I would invite you to do a survey of the Amish community (or your own community) and find out how many of the believe that it is actually LEGAL to sexually abuse and rape children. What percentage of Amish men do you think actually believe that it is perfectly legal to rape children? What percentage of men in your community do you think actually believe that it is perfectly legal to rape children? What is your best guess?

Many of them (especially those in power) may not think the laws apply to them because they answer to a higher law or something. But they know that child rape and sexual abuse is a crime. In this case the Bishop in question didn't just ignore the crime. He actively attempted to discourage others from reporting it. If he was unaware that there was a crime, why try to cover it up? He knew.

Let's put it in another context. The Amish also know that property theft is both a sin and a crime. But they may not choose to report an incidence of theft in the Amish community because they may wish to deal with it themselves. But that doesn't negate the fact that they really do know that property theft is a crime and against the law.

We are talking about intelligent Americans who have been living in this country for 300 years, and who fully understand the outside world even if they choose not to be a part of it. We aren't talking about some stone-age tribe in the Amazon who truly does not understand the modern world.

Great points, Ken! At the risk of sounding crass: I'm acquainted with a former manager of the radiology department of a local hospital. She could recount numerous instances of various Amish fathers who had impregnated a daughter bringing the resulting child with deformities into the hospital for x-rays.

How does one tease that apart? What does the act of boldly bringing the product of rape to a medical extablishment convey? If the perpetrator thought someone would call the authorities to report "the crime," would they have brought the child into the hospital?

I think there is a sense of exceptionalism or superiority that pervades conservative AB communities. I grew up with it. Where there is a sense that worldly laws and customs don't apply because we are answering to a higher law because we are just better people. I think some people may simply have the cognitive dissonance to ignore or rationalize the contradictions. Or simply think that since it is something that they dealt with themselves through prayer, repentance, et., it's not the business of the outside world to intervene. And when confronted (as in your example) may actually be surprised that others in the outside world don't actually share that belief.

But that is different from saying that they don't KNOW that rape, and child abuse are crimes as well as sins. Or for that matter, that theft, robbery, extortion, etc. are also crimes as well as sins. I don't for an instant think that the Amish or anyone else is actually confused about this.

[Neto]

I agree, Ken. (And I was mostly joking about the "stone-age" deal, & attempted to communicate that with the winking face.)

I don't know if the motivation is really to protect the victim, or not. I fear that it is more to protect their own reputation as a group. (That's the "survey question" I expected you to put in your last post, before I scrolled on down.) The ones who often do not know for sure that it is wrong are the young children who are being molested, I think especially when the perp is their father or grandfather. That has to be very confusing, feeling that it is wrong, but yet also thinking that it can't be, because this person who is supposed to be caring for them is the one doing it to them.

[Ken]

I agree, Ken. (And I was mostly joking about the "stone-age" deal, & attempted to communicate that with the winking face.)

I don't know if the motivation is really to protect the victim, or not. I fear that it is more to protect their own reputation as a group. (That's the "survey question" I expected you to put in your last post, before I scrolled on down.) The ones who often do not know for sure that it is wrong are the young children who are being molested, I think especially when the perp is their father or grandfather. That has to be very confusing, feeling that it is wrong, but yet also thinking that it can't be, because this person who is supposed to be caring for them is the one doing it to them.

Oh sure. I'm not talking about the 10 year old victims here. No doubt there is tremendous self-guilt and confusion and brainwashing going on. I'm talking about the older men who are in positions of authority.

As for motivations. I expect they are the same as for any other group, whether it is a fancy prep school or Catholic parish, or Amish community. They reflexively seek to protect their community, reputations, leadership (or turf) and seek to avoid airing their dirty laundry in public. Not because they are confused about whether or not it is a crime or a sin. But because they know all too well that it is a crime and want to avoid the public spectacle that always accompany these sorts of scandals.

[temporal1]

.... We aren't talking about some stone-age tribe in the Amazon who truly does not understand the modern world.

While I would never use the term "stone-age" (if I were as sensitive as some Americans seem to be, I would be "deeply offended" by this, and might even go burn down some buildings or something.... ), I did live with an isolated tribe (in the Amazon, even) for 17 years, and will just say that they also know that rape is wrong. It is written on their inner being by the Creator.
And the penalty would generally be much worse in a culture like that than in Western society, at least for the perp.

But in relation to the case in point - it would be well to realize that exposure also brings more suffering to the victim, and they are now twice victimized. I know a few Amish girls here who were abused, and I have seen how they have been 'marked' when the story came out. Yes, the perp went to prison (although I am not aware of any punishment coming against those who attempted to cover it up), but one of these girls whom I have known for many years, her boyfriend at the time walked away when he found out. And that breaks my heart. I suppose you could just say that he didn't deserve her, and that better rid of such a fickle guy,

but she was not guilty, so where are the ones who will cherish and respect these whom God has declared clean?

This requires a deep change in cultural attitudes, and unfortunately you cannot legislate that. (We are, by the way, all broken in some way or another.)

I agree, Ken. (And I was mostly joking about the "stone-age" deal, & attempted to communicate that with the winking face.)

I don't know if the motivation is really to protect the victim, or not.

I fear that it is more to protect their own reputation as a group. (That's the "survey question" I expected you to put in your last post, before I scrolled on down.)

The ones who often do not know for sure that it is wrong are the young children who are being molested, I think especially when the perp is their father or grandfather.

That has to be very confusing, feeling that it is wrong,
but yet also thinking that it can't be, because this person who is supposed to be caring for them is the one doing it to them.

What “God writes in our inner beings” cannot be overstated.
Then the confusion+torture/guilt/shame/fear resulting from these gross violations.

There are some who are attempting to normalize and legalize what God has written on human hearts is wrong/sin. More+more all the time.

[Ken]

.... We aren't talking about some stone-age tribe in the Amazon who truly does not understand the modern world.

While I would never use the term "stone-age" (if I were as sensitive as some Americans seem to be, I would be "deeply offended" by this, and might even go burn down some buildings or something.... ), I did live with an isolated tribe (in the Amazon, even) for 17 years, and will just say that they also know that rape is wrong. It is written on their inner being by the Creator.
And the penalty would generally be much worse in a culture like that than in Western society, at least for the perp.

Oh please.

I did not say that remote Amazon tribes to not have morals or ethics or understand right from wrong. I think all humans innately know this What I said was that they may not understand the modern world. As in things like how our English common-law based legal system and courts work, and specific legal reporting requirements for crimes like child abuse.

The larger point was that the Amish have been Americans for perhaps 300 years and do indeed understand the laws and legal system of the society within which they live, even if they choose to live apart. They aren't some tribe like the Sentinelese who live off the coast of India and do indeed need protection from outside influence if their culture is to survive.

I just disagree with the notion that the Amish are some sort of naïve, exotic, child-like people who don't understand the world in which they live, and need to be protected from it. That was the only point I was making.