ABC 123 wrote:I have (or have had), do (or have done) almost all 10 of those things in the poll and consider myself quite conservative. Those are all mostly culture specific signaling that have no meaning outside of anabaptists.
Perhaps you are a “political conservative”; these people are easily identified since their children and grandchildren tend to become political liberals.
I know people who are in Beachy and Charity type churches with extremely liberal kids. Like blue hair, women's libbers, so this doesn't necessarily hold true.
Outwardly, you would judge my children to not measure up. They don't wear the right outfits, I am sure.
But how do you fairly judge these things? In the heart of Amish country you have people going in debt to their eyeballs to impress the neighbors. Many send their children to be educated in the public schools.
As a family, we hold much more conservative views on education, finances, and the lengths we go to to impress people.
Some further thoughts. Why is it the Anabaptist church groups who are the most basic in their dress and living conditions seem to have the least knowledge of the way to salvation and have the darkest secrets? (Swartzentruber Amish for example) Outwardly they are conservative (as per our view of that). Inwardly they aren't scoring points for it though.
I know people on the more "conservative" end of the spectrum (those who are conservative for Mennonites but liberal for Amish) who believe some things that are pretty much sorcery.
Is there a sweet spot that brings together all the best of conservative dress and theology? I know there are people who believe this. It is almost always where the person presently is.
Don't get me wrong, I love conservative Anabaptists. My personal experiences have changed (jaded?) my views a lot.
ABC 123 wrote:Some further thoughts. Why is it the Anabaptist church groups who are the most basic in their dress and living conditions seem to have the least knowledge of the way to salvation and have the darkest secrets? (Swartzentruber Amish for example) Outwardly they are conservative (as per our view of that). Inwardly they aren't scoring points for it though.
I know people on the more "conservative" end of the spectrum (those who are conservative for Mennonites but liberal for Amish) who believe some things that are pretty much sorcery.
Is there a sweet spot that brings together all the best of conservative dress and theology? I know there are people who believe this. It is almost always where the person presently is.
Don't get me wrong, I love conservative Anabaptists. My personal experiences have changed (jaded?) my views a lot.
For the most part, I agree with you, but we all have to admit there will be exceptions.
Another rule that I found to be (almost always) true... if someone in a group goes above and beyond to be "extra" conservative, there's usually something up. Either they're hiding something or trying to compensate for something.
I would consider all of these things to be peripheral tangents or distractions that have very little to do with being liberal or conservative in either a religious or political sense.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote:I would consider all of these things to be peripheral tangents or distractions that have very little to do with being liberal or conservative in either a religious or political sense.
I'm getting the feeling that asking liberals whats liberal would be a little misleading. Most of these things reflect quite heavily on a person's focus in life and would dictate the liberal/permissive nature or conservative/restrictive position. most of these are totally religious pieces here that are mostly specific to very conservative churches are basically are almost entirely abandon by more permissive churches
Ken wrote:I would consider all of these things to be peripheral tangents or distractions that have very little to do with being liberal or conservative in either a religious or political sense.
I'm getting the feeling that asking liberals whats liberal would be a little misleading. Most of these things reflect quite heavily on a person's focus in life and would dictate the liberal/permissive nature or conservative/restrictive position. most of these are totally religious pieces here that are mostly specific to very conservative churches are basically are almost entirely abandon by more permissive churches
Maybe we need a little historical perspective on liberalism. As far as I know the current usage descends from the age of revolution and describes ones relationship with the old monarchies or revolutionary forces. Neither of those Truth systems seems anabaptist to me. Both liberal and conservative are terms that derive meaning in reference to a standard, be it 1950's american culture or 1550's european peasant culture. As Stanley Haurwas might say, "liberal (popular usage) is not a theological concept."
I might be wrong but recently it seems "conservative" is in transition, taking on the connotation of one who defies authority, such as refusing masking or other health mandates or pledges violence in search of truth.
Popular usage of these terms is constantly moving. American revolutionists were liberal in the 18th century as were the bolsheviks in the next. Confederates were conservative in resisting liberal ideas like civil rights and fundamentalists were conservative in resisting liberal ideas like social gospel. Maybe this is part of the beauty of human language, imprecision and constant change.
I find it very interesting that 12% say having TV is liberal, but only 5% say having unfettered smart phone is liberal. This seems very inconsistent to me.
SJS wrote:I find it very interesting that 12% say having TV is liberal, but only 5% say having unfettered smart phone is liberal. This seems very inconsistent to me.
I would think both are "liberal" and dangerous to Christians.
To me and this discussion should be phrased in such a way, this isn't about the greater political realm of masks or not but simply about liberal Mennonite churches and conservative Mennonite churches.
On the conservative end none of these items would be permitted.
My own personal take is that all of them are liberal except the suit/tie and the red car. Those of course would be situational.
Edit: at least we all are fairly convinced that pants on ladies are bad
