Josh wrote:In that case, the next questions to put forth to FOTW are:
#1. What is another denomination (like BMA, CMC, KMF, etc.), or a list of churches, where you would be comfortable letting any of their preachers come and preach at your church on a special evening type of service?
#2. What would be the same, except for coming and preaching a regular Sunday morning service?
#3. What would be the same, except for coming and conducting a communion service?
#4. What would be the same, except for coming and baptising someone who wants to become a member of your church?
If the answer to these questions is "Only our own people", then congratulations - you're looking at a One True Church.
I strongly disagree with this, unless I am misunderstanding something.
I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with - these are questions, not answers. The answers to these questions would reveal with whom you have fellowship with (based on #1 and somewhat #2), and with who you are in full communion with (based on somewhat #2 and definitely on #3 and #4).
Yeah, I would just disagree that if you answer is only our own people to questions 3 and 4 that you have one true church doctrine. I dont know of any church that allows outside ministry to come in and perform their baptism services, besides maybe the mission field.
In general, we admit to communion people temporarily in the area that are of "Like faith and practice."
We have had visiting preachers from BMA, Mid Atlantic and Beachy Amish. We have cooperated in winter Bible school with some of the BMA churches in our area. We have worked alongside of Mid Atlantic people in outreach ministry. This is just what I can remember off of the top of my head. If there were similar groups with different labels nearby, we would likely work with them too.
However our communion and baptism services are always done by our bishop or pastor.
I doubt if we could be called "One True Church" by any reasonable definition.
Judas Maccabeus wrote:Yes, I have heard the same denials. I suspect that in Dean's case, they are likely sincere.
Yes. A few years ago Dean told me something like this, "I have decided to make my home among the ethnic Anabaptists. These are the people I know and love and work with. Others like Finny have decided to start something fresh on their own."
A couple years later when Dean went to Sattler, he believed he was being "hired to move Sattler in a more Anabaptist direction." Part of moving in a more Anabaptist direction is learning to earn the respect of Anabaptist leaders and communities. I've seen Dean taking steps in this direction the last year. It still remains to be seen how much credibility they will be able to establish with CA's.
In spite of my critiques of Sattler and FOTW, I've told Finny that I am for him, and want to see him succeed. My critiques are not for the purpose of tearing him down. One of the reasons I want FOTW and Sattler to succeed is that we have very few kingdom Christian options to offer people besides the CA world. There are a lot of people who will never be able to feel at home in the CA world and I would like other options to recommend to them.
I think they are being successful. And I advocate for them.
They had an incoming class of around 40 kids this year. Around double the previous years. This puts them total at not far from 80 kids. I can see them continuing to grow. I know a couple of really strong CA kids from our area who chose to go to Sattler, in spite of having "sweet scholarship" deals from other secular colleges. I'd like to see it where a good portion of every graduating class from our school considers heading that direction.
I also see more support staff clearly hired from CA circles. Also KMF folks, Rick Rhodes, etc have been invited to speak up there. Pablo Yoder as well. And there is some intermarrying between folks up there and KMF ladies at Fairview.
BMA's DNI President's son is there. One of EBI's teachers is there. etc...
Terre Hill Mennonite School and EMS both have board members with children at Sattler.
Judas Maccabeus wrote:Yes, I have heard the same denials. I suspect that in Dean's case, they are likely sincere.
Yes. A few years ago Dean told me something like this, "I have decided to make my home among the ethnic Anabaptists. These are the people I know and love and work with. Others like Finny have decided to start something fresh on their own."
A couple years later when Dean went to Sattler, he believed he was being "hired to move Sattler in a more Anabaptist direction." Part of moving in a more Anabaptist direction is learning to earn the respect of Anabaptist leaders and communities. I've seen Dean taking steps in this direction the last year. It still remains to be seen how much credibility they will be able to establish with CA's.
In spite of my critiques of Sattler and FOTW, I've told Finny that I am for him, and want to see him succeed. My critiques are not for the purpose of tearing him down. One of the reasons I want FOTW and Sattler to succeed is that we have very few kingdom Christian options to offer people besides the CA world. There are a lot of people who will never be able to feel at home in the CA world and I would like other options to recommend to them.
I think they are being successful. And I advocate for them.
They had an incoming class of around 40 kids this year. Around double the previous years. This puts them total at not far from 80 kids. I can see them continuing to grow. I know a couple of really strong CA kids from our area who chose to go to Sattler, in spite of having "sweet scholarship" deals from other secular colleges. I'd like to see it where a good portion of every graduating class from our school considers heading that direction.
I also see more support staff clearly hired from CA circles. Also KMF folks, Rick Rhodes, etc have been invited to speak up there. Pablo Yoder as well. And there is some intermarrying between folks up there and KMF ladies at Fairview.
BMA's DNI President's son is there. One of EBI's teachers is there. etc...
Terre Hill Mennonite School and EMS both have board members with children at Sattler.
Are these people aware of what they teach up there? If they have gone "Fivefold Ministry" and "Apostles" they are headed off the rails.
Ernie wrote:
Yes. A few years ago Dean told me something like this, "I have decided to make my home among the ethnic Anabaptists. These are the people I know and love and work with. Others like Finny have decided to start something fresh on their own."
A couple years later when Dean went to Sattler, he believed he was being "hired to move Sattler in a more Anabaptist direction." Part of moving in a more Anabaptist direction is learning to earn the respect of Anabaptist leaders and communities. I've seen Dean taking steps in this direction the last year. It still remains to be seen how much credibility they will be able to establish with CA's.
In spite of my critiques of Sattler and FOTW, I've told Finny that I am for him, and want to see him succeed. My critiques are not for the purpose of tearing him down. One of the reasons I want FOTW and Sattler to succeed is that we have very few kingdom Christian options to offer people besides the CA world. There are a lot of people who will never be able to feel at home in the CA world and I would like other options to recommend to them.
I think they are being successful. And I advocate for them.
They had an incoming class of around 40 kids this year. Around double the previous years. This puts them total at not far from 80 kids. I can see them continuing to grow. I know a couple of really strong CA kids from our area who chose to go to Sattler, in spite of having "sweet scholarship" deals from other secular colleges. I'd like to see it where a good portion of every graduating class from our school considers heading that direction.
I also see more support staff clearly hired from CA circles. Also KMF folks, Rick Rhodes, etc have been invited to speak up there. Pablo Yoder as well. And there is some intermarrying between folks up there and KMF ladies at Fairview.
BMA's DNI President's son is there. One of EBI's teachers is there. etc...
Terre Hill Mennonite School and EMS both have board members with children at Sattler.
Are these people aware of what they teach up there? If they have gone "Fivefold Ministry" and "Apostles" they are headed off the rails.
J.M.
While I have a somewhat "dim" view of "Fivefold" model ideas because of problems I have observed with groups that go a bit crazy with this, I don't see them really as anymore dangerous than the abiblical ideas/norms around the traditional CA bishops and ministers model illustrated by KMF/Pilgrim/Eastern/Mid-Atlantic etc. More or less I see the various styles as harmless, so long as the officers, whatever their titles, exude the grace, peace, and holiness of Jesus.
Regarding the extent to which they are familiar with FOTW singularities, real presence/regenerative baptism, I can't be sure. In both cases in my mind, there is actually biblical data to support various positions. Here is where I like Ernie's approach. Just stick with what the Bible says.
Judas Maccabeus wrote:Yes, I have heard the same denials. I suspect that in Dean's case, they are likely sincere.
Yes. A few years ago Dean told me something like this, "I have decided to make my home among the ethnic Anabaptists. These are the people I know and love and work with. Others like Finny have decided to start something fresh on their own."
A couple years later when Dean went to Sattler, he believed he was being "hired to move Sattler in a more Anabaptist direction." Part of moving in a more Anabaptist direction is learning to earn the respect of Anabaptist leaders and communities. I've seen Dean taking steps in this direction the last year. It still remains to be seen how much credibility they will be able to establish with CA's.
In spite of my critiques of Sattler and FOTW, I've told Finny that I am for him, and want to see him succeed. My critiques are not for the purpose of tearing him down. One of the reasons I want FOTW and Sattler to succeed is that we have very few kingdom Christian options to offer people besides the CA world. There are a lot of people who will never be able to feel at home in the CA world and I would like other options to recommend to them.
It is working, after seeing that Dean has posted on DKCM's; it makes me as someone with no Christian upbringing that is now a kingdom Christian very leery and wanting to stay away from FOTW and Sattler. If anything they have pushed me much further toward feeling home amongst CA's.
Judas Maccabeus wrote:Yes, I have heard the same denials. I suspect that in Dean's case, they are likely sincere.
Yes. A few years ago Dean told me something like this, "I have decided to make my home among the ethnic Anabaptists. These are the people I know and love and work with. Others like Finny have decided to start something fresh on their own."
A couple years later when Dean went to Sattler, he believed he was being "hired to move Sattler in a more Anabaptist direction." Part of moving in a more Anabaptist direction is learning to earn the respect of Anabaptist leaders and communities. I've seen Dean taking steps in this direction the last year. It still remains to be seen how much credibility they will be able to establish with CA's.
In spite of my critiques of Sattler and FOTW, I've told Finny that I am for him, and want to see him succeed. My critiques are not for the purpose of tearing him down. One of the reasons I want FOTW and Sattler to succeed is that we have very few kingdom Christian options to offer people besides the CA world. There are a lot of people who will never be able to feel at home in the CA world and I would like other options to recommend to them.
It is working, after seeing that Dean has posted on DKCM's; it makes me as someone with no Christian upbringing that is now a kingdom Christian very leery and wanting to stay away from FOTW and Sattler. If anything they have pushed me much further toward feeling home amongst CA's.
I stopped looking at that thread after the first page. I would likely fit in far better in your church than where that kind of stuff is common currency.
ohio jones wrote:In my experience, it's a little unusual in any denomination (not just Mennonites) for someone to "come in and perform baptisms or communion services" -- those are usually done by the local pastors.
The question is if they would accept it happening or not. In my church, every communion has 1-2 (usually 2) outside ministers during communion. It’s really obvious who we are in full communion with.
ohio jones wrote:In my experience, it's a little unusual in any denomination (not just Mennonites) for someone to "come in and perform baptisms or communion services" -- those are usually done by the local pastors.
The question is if they would accept it happening or not. In my church, every communion has 1-2 (usually 2) outside ministers during communion. It’s really obvious who we are in full communion with.
Well most Mennonites unless they are overseen by another church don't have anyone extra that I've seen for communion. It would be considered very strange to ask someone outside of your own church to baptize you.
ohio jones wrote:In my experience, it's a little unusual in any denomination (not just Mennonites) for someone to "come in and perform baptisms or communion services" -- those are usually done by the local pastors.
The question is if they would accept it happening or not. In my church, every communion has 1-2 (usually 2) outside ministers during communion. It’s really obvious who we are in full communion with.
Well most Mennonites unless they are overseen by another church don't have anyone extra that I've seen for communion. It would be considered very strange to ask someone outside of your own church to baptize you.
I appreciate no one outside partaking because when communion is closed to anyone outside it means we don't have to judge. When there is a mixing of letting certain people outside partake and not others it just sounds like a club and more about who you know than the body of Christ.