Kingdom Christian and Charity Movements

[Ms. Izzie]

Nope. Just saying we should have our own houses in order.

[Soloist]

In that case, the next questions to put forth to FOTW are:

#1. What is another denomination (like BMA, CMC, KMF, etc.), or a list of churches, where you would be comfortable letting any of their preachers come and preach at your church on a special evening type of service?

#2. What would be the same, except for coming and preaching a regular Sunday morning service?

#3. What would be the same, except for coming and conducting a communion service?

#4. What would be the same, except for coming and baptising someone who wants to become a member of your church?

If the answer to these questions is "Only our own people", then congratulations - you're looking at a One True Church.

and the answers for your own group would differ how?

Some of those questions would be embarrassing and cause offense were none was intended.

[barnhart]

For all our faults, we CAs seem to be an excellent, abundant source of willing participants in various socio-religious experiments.

That made me laugh. It is interesting how often those who judge from the outside still find it beneficial to be in close orbit.

[Dan Z]

I absolutely don't have the impression the FOTW is proselytizing conservative Anabaptists.

And yet, just as Charity knew where to have its tent meetings (Amish country), Sattler knows where to hold awareness events...

I don't think you should mix up Sattler College's recruitment of Mennonite students as being the same as Followers of the Way "proselytizing conservative Anabaptists." First, it's my impression that Sattler understands itself as independent of FOTW (or any other denomination), and second, I don't have any sense that Sattler has a program of encouraging Mennonte young people to leave Anabaptism to become FOTW adherents. If anything, the ethos I've seen there currently among students and staff will likely strengthen Anabaptist convictions and understandings in the minds and hearts of students.

In the long run, I think their future as a college lies in a mix between Conservative Anabaptists (forming the foundation) and what we used to call "seeker families" - often independent, educationally minded homeschooling families

So one can debate whether they are proselytizing CAs, but like you just said, they probably know where their future lies. And the mix you describe is precisely the mix that exists or existed in the Charity churches.

I don't actually have a problem with Sattler recruiting CAs for students if that's what they want to do, and I certainly don't have a problem with anybody going to the college. But I would defend what JM is saying to some extent - there is definitely outreach to CA young people, and also it should be made clear what if any doctrinal differences exist between Sattler and the CA communities they are apparently attempting to serve.

I understand your concerns, but honestly this feels like a defensive posture to me - protecting our young people from being poached out of the safety conservative Mennonite culture. Again, I don't see that happening at Sattler...time will tell. Right now I see it as an empowering and faith-grounding experience for students that aligns closely with Kingdom/Anabaptist commitments. I take encouragement from what I would had hoped for from Charity...that in the spirit of the early church and early Christianity, Sattler might contribute to the growth and equipping of a radical Kingdom-centered fealty to Jesus that breaks beyond the safety of our Mennonite ethnic bubble, and brings our young people together with other seekers from beyond our tradition to re-energize a movement that could impact the world for the cause of Christ. I've still got some questions as well, but that's what excites me most about the potential of Sattler.

[Dan Z]

...also it should be made clear what if any doctrinal differences exist between Sattler and the CA communities they are apparently attempting to serve.

Have you seen this from Sattler College's website:

Founding Precepts

Sattler College provides an education that is grounded in the historic Christian faith. This encompasses the traditional beliefs of the church with respect to doctrine and practice. While the College has no specific denominational affiliation, the beliefs upon which it is established correspond most closely with the persecuted, suffering churches of history, such as the ante-Nicene church, the Waldensians, the Wycliffites, and the Anabaptists.

With respect to doctrine, the College affirms the traditional tenets of the Christian faith including the Trinity, Jesus' bodily resurrection, salvation through Christ, the infallible nature of the Scriptures, and the final judgment (Matthew 28:19; John 11:25; 20:24-21:14; Acts 4:12; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27; 2 Timothy 3:16). Thus the College affirms agreement with the historic creeds of the church such as the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed.

With respect to practice:
The College affirms that love and obedience to Jesus’ commands are the true hallmarks of the Christian faith (Matthew 7:15-20; Luke 6:46; John 13:34-35; 1 John 2:3). The College affirms that obedience to Christ is organically and necessarily connected to faith in Christ (John 14:15, 14:23, 15:10; James 1:22-25; Romans 6:17).
The College reads the Scriptures in a Christocentric fashion, placing stress on Jesus’ teachings and example, most notably the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and his death on the cross. With respect to the Sermon on the Mount, the College affirms Jesus’ positive injunctions to guard our hearts (Matthew 5:3-30) and love our enemies. The College affirms His prohibition of oaths (Matthew 5:33-37) and His prohibition against accumulating treasures on earth (Matthew 6:19-21).
The College affirms Jesus’ commands of Christian peacemaking and nonresistance (Matthew 5:33-48), which includes the teaching that Christians are not permitted to kill or serve in war. Instead the Christian mandate to love our enemies without prejudice, to pray for the safety of all people (1 Timothy 2:1-4), and sacrificially serve those afflicted by war and injustice.
The College affirms that the church is intended to be an intentional body of those who follow Jesus, not a mixed group containing those who disbelieve or reject Jesus’ teachings (Matthew 18:15-18; 1 Corinthians 5; Ephesians 5:11). The College also affirms that the church must remain free from the influence of the state.
The College affirms that baptism is only for those who repent and believe; this naturally implies a rejection of infant baptism (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark: 16:16; Acts 2:38, 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Colossians 2:12).
The College affirms that remarriage after divorce is biblically prohibited while the former spouse lives (Matthew 5:31-32; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18; Romans 7:2-3).
The College affirms separation from the world in matters that Scripture commands such as worldview, dress, and entertainment (Psalm 101:3; Romans 12:1-2; 1 Corinthians 11:1-16; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Philippians 4:8; 1 Timothy 2:8-10).
The College recognizes the historic pattern of: a) drift of Christian institutions and churches away from the simplicity of Scripture; and b) the tendency to marginalize demanding teachings as if they were culturally transient. Because Sattler College seeks to uphold the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3), the College is committed to learning from history in order to uphold and practice the original, apostolic faith.

[Josh]

In that case, the next questions to put forth to FOTW are:

#1. What is another denomination (like BMA, CMC, KMF, etc.), or a list of churches, where you would be comfortable letting any of their preachers come and preach at your church on a special evening type of service?

#2. What would be the same, except for coming and preaching a regular Sunday morning service?

#3. What would be the same, except for coming and conducting a communion service?

#4. What would be the same, except for coming and baptising someone who wants to become a member of your church?

If the answer to these questions is "Only our own people", then congratulations - you're looking at a One True Church.

and the answers for your own group would differ how?

Some of those questions would be embarrassing and cause offense were none was intended.

Holdemans do not pretend that they are not a One True Visible Church group; indeed, they are very clear about this in their publications and even have a tract about it. Anyone who wants to join one of our churches will be made aware of this fact.

The problem I have with FOTW is that they seem to answer #3 and #4 identically to the Holdemans, yet they claim not to be an OTC group.

[Josh]

In that case, the next questions to put forth to FOTW are:

#1. What is another denomination (like BMA, CMC, KMF, etc.), or a list of churches, where you would be comfortable letting any of their preachers come and preach at your church on a special evening type of service?

#2. What would be the same, except for coming and preaching a regular Sunday morning service?

#3. What would be the same, except for coming and conducting a communion service?

#4. What would be the same, except for coming and baptising someone who wants to become a member of your church?

If the answer to these questions is "Only our own people", then congratulations - you're looking at a One True Church.

and the answers for your own group would differ how?

Some of those questions would be embarrassing and cause offense were none was intended.

The purpose of these questions is to understand fellowship lines.

For example, your church would not have an ELCA Lutheran minister come in and perform baptisms or communion services. That simply means Western Fellowship & the ELCA are not in full communion. It's fine to be open and upfront about this. (Your church and mine aren't in full communion, either.)

However, your church and RZehr's would definitely be in full communion including across #1 all the way to #4. That helps to understand what the fellowship lines are - and in particular, you would (as far as I know) also be in full communion from #1 all the way to #4 with Biblical Anabaptist's church, despite being different "denominations".

All I am asking is what FOTW's broader church network is. I think it's reasonable to ask who they are in full communion with, and with whom they draw fellowship lines.

Generally speaking, operating a Bible school or a college to recruit students from congregations with whom you aren't in fellowship is questionable. The Holdemans don't try to recruit other CA students for our Bible classes. It doesn't make sense to. If we started aggressively setting up meetings to recruit other CA young people, I think a lot of people would be asking the same questions I'm asking.

[Josh]

I don't think you should mix up Sattler College's recruitment of Mennonite students as being the same as Followers of the Way "proselytizing conservative Anabaptists." First, it's my impression that Sattler understands itself as independent of FOTW (or any other denomination), and second, I don't have any sense that Sattler has a program of encouraging Mennonte young people to leave Anabaptism to become FOTW adherents. If anything, the ethos I've seen there currently among students and staff will likely strengthen Anabaptist convictions and understandings in the minds and hearts of students.

Indoctrinating students with concepts like the real presence is not going to "strengthen Anabaptist convictions"; I guess it would make sense to indoctrinate students with baptismal regeneration if they're German Baptists, but otherwise all I see this doing is sowing discord.

Sattler might contribute to the growth and equipping of a radical Kingdom-centered fealty to Jesus that breaks beyond the safety of our Mennonite ethnic bubble, and brings our young people together with other seekers from beyond our tradition to re-energize a movement that could impact the world for the cause of Christ. I've still got some questions as well, but that's what excites me most about the potential of Sattler.

If Sattler wants to take students out of the safety of our Mennonite ethnic bubble, then they might want to consider having a student body that is not majority Mennonites. It is worth asking why they have been unable to recruit students who aren't already Mennonites.

[Ambassador]

In that case, the next questions to put forth to FOTW are:

#1. What is another denomination (like BMA, CMC, KMF, etc.), or a list of churches, where you would be comfortable letting any of their preachers come and preach at your church on a special evening type of service?

#2. What would be the same, except for coming and preaching a regular Sunday morning service?

#3. What would be the same, except for coming and conducting a communion service?

#4. What would be the same, except for coming and baptising someone who wants to become a member of your church?

If the answer to these questions is "Only our own people", then congratulations - you're looking at a One True Church.

I strongly disagree with this, unless I am misunderstanding something.

[Josh]

In that case, the next questions to put forth to FOTW are:

#1. What is another denomination (like BMA, CMC, KMF, etc.), or a list of churches, where you would be comfortable letting any of their preachers come and preach at your church on a special evening type of service?

#2. What would be the same, except for coming and preaching a regular Sunday morning service?

#3. What would be the same, except for coming and conducting a communion service?

#4. What would be the same, except for coming and baptising someone who wants to become a member of your church?

If the answer to these questions is "Only our own people", then congratulations - you're looking at a One True Church.

I strongly disagree with this, unless I am misunderstanding something.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with - these are questions, not answers. The answers to these questions would reveal with whom you have fellowship with (based on #1 and somewhat #2), and with who you are in full communion with (based on somewhat #2 and definitely on #3 and #4).