Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.

[Lonny90]

Ernie's article had some of the best arguments for standards that I have ever seen, and I don't feel it is wrong to have a standard. However my concerns with standards go something like this.
1. They often seem to be motivated out of a desire to protect one's own congregation, when I wonder if we might do well to be willing to die, to give it to God and walk out peacefully if things apostatize.
2. They often seem to be driven by legalism, for example, because I believe (insert random book here) is pointless or possibly heresy, I will prevent you from having it, even if your bookshelf probably makes no difference to my relationship with God.
3. They often seem to substitute the deep, organic, iron sharpening iron, praying for, counseling each other, relationship of siblings in Christ with people who are conditioned to get along and talk of work, and hobbies, because of not having anything to disagree with each other on or any need to develop convictions of there own.

In the end, I am not dogmatically anti-standard, I would be willing to join a church with some reasonable standards if so led. I am mostly just wondering if we as a people would be willing to forgo our feelings of security, and give up any ideas of "our church," might we be better off, and in regards to the op, more inviting to outsiders? Ironically, I personally probably have deeper convictions or values on at least some things than many liberal beachys my age.

[ABC 123]

I can see it is a good thing to preserve culture. CA is not my native culture. I respect that it is someone's culture and appreciate having had a chance to visit even though it was painfully obvious I could not live there.

[Ernie]

I am mostly just wondering if we as a people would be willing to forgo our feelings of security, and give up any ideas of "our church," might we be better off, and in regards to the op, more inviting to outsiders?

The interesting thing is that "outsiders", seekers, or folks from non-Anabaptist background (NAB) are found about equally in each of the conservative Anabaptist constituencies.
Ultra-Conservative
Intermediate-Conservative
Moderate-Conservative
Progressive (Fundamental) Conservative

So loosening up standards does not translate into more NAB's joining ethnic Anabaptist (EA) churches. The majority of seekers are not just looking for looser standards but also people with strong principles and vibrant Christian living. They often find the latter in the more ultra-conservative and intermediate-conservative churches, but then they struggle with all of the cultural expectations that they find in these groups. Those who join moderate or progressive-conservative groups have more latitude which they appreciate, but then they get discouraged with the half-hearted spirituality.

The plain churches with the most seekers are what I call neo-Anabaptist groups. Folks like Charity Fellowship and Followers of the Way are comprised of about half EA's and half NAB's. Neo-Anabaptists at their beginning tend to have looser expectations but they also have strong principles and vibrant Christian living. I don't particularly agree with all of their strong principles but if a person does agree with their principles, they find such churches to be just what they were looking for as long as the relationships in the church are somewhat healthy.

[MaxPC]

I am mostly just wondering if we as a people would be willing to forgo our feelings of security, and give up any ideas of "our church," might we be better off, and in regards to the op, more inviting to outsiders?

The interesting thing is that "outsiders", seekers, or folks from non-Anabaptist background (NAB) are found about equally in each of the conservative Anabaptist constituencies.
Ultra-Conservative
Intermediate-Conservative
Moderate-Conservative
Progressive (Fundamental) Conservative

So loosening up standards does not translate into more NAB's joining ethnic Anabaptist (EA) churches. The majority of seekers are not just looking for looser standards but also people with strong principles and vibrant Christian living. They often find the latter in the more ultra-conservative and intermediate-conservative churches, but then they struggle with all of the cultural expectations that they find in these groups. Those who join moderate or progressive-conservative groups have more latitude which they appreciate, but then they get discouraged with the half-hearted spirituality.

The plain churches with the most seekers are what I call neo-Anabaptist groups. Folks like Charity Fellowship and Followers of the Way are comprised of about half EA's and half NAB's. Neo-Anabaptists at their beginning tend to have looser expectations but they also have strong principles and vibrant Christian living. I don't particularly agree with all of their strong principles but if a person does agree with their principles, they find such churches to be just what they were looking for as long as the relationships in the church are somewhat healthy.

Agreed. Seekers want a strong stand on the essentials of faith. Most seekers we have encountered are fleeing from churches who are loosening Biblical standards and teachings regarding abortion, homosexuality, gender-bending and what the seekers have termed "happy clappy" services. They are seeking solid teaching, not secular accommodation. They want to have a daily expression of their faith, not social justice programs.

Ernie's observation that NABs struggle with the cultural expectations has me thinking that perhaps the NABs would benefit from the mentoring of older couples who are proficient in explaining the cultural aspects. Just a thought there.

[DrWojo]

In my opinion, because when you first become:
Barely
Mennonite
Aanymore

Two hours later I'm still chuckling at this Did you come up with that?

No, it’s not original with me, but I cannot remember where I first heard it.

[Ambassador]

I am mostly just wondering if we as a people would be willing to forgo our feelings of security, and give up any ideas of "our church," might we be better off, and in regards to the op, more inviting to outsiders?

The interesting thing is that "outsiders", seekers, or folks from non-Anabaptist background (NAB) are found about equally in each of the conservative Anabaptist constituencies.
Ultra-Conservative
Intermediate-Conservative
Moderate-Conservative
Progressive (Fundamental) Conservative

So loosening up standards does not translate into more NAB's joining ethnic Anabaptist (EA) churches. The majority of seekers are not just looking for looser standards but also people with strong principles and vibrant Christian living. They often find the latter in the more ultra-conservative and intermediate-conservative churches, but then they struggle with all of the cultural expectations that they find in these groups. Those who join moderate or progressive-conservative groups have more latitude which they appreciate, but then they get discouraged with the half-hearted spirituality.

The plain churches with the most seekers are what I call neo-Anabaptist groups. Folks like Charity Fellowship and Followers of the Way are comprised of about half EA's and half NAB's. Neo-Anabaptists at their beginning tend to have looser expectations but they also have strong principles and vibrant Christian living. I don't particularly agree with all of their strong principles but if a person does agree with their principles, they find such churches to be just what they were looking for as long as the relationships in the church are somewhat healthy.

So Ernie, is it possible for a intermediate or moderate conservative congregation to stay in that group, and yet effectively reach out to NABs?
I hear you saying in this post that it seems mainly a thing of strong spirituality and vibrant Christian life. In your sermon on "No Greater Burden" it seemed more a thing of all these extra cultural expectations and standards.
Can a church stay Mid-Atlantic or Keystone and offer the good parts of the Neo-Anabaptists?

[Ernie]

Ernie's observation that NABs struggle with the cultural expectations has me thinking that perhaps the NABs would benefit from the mentoring of older couples who are proficient in explaining the cultural aspects. Just a thought there.

Definitely true, but the plain world has very, very few competent older couples who can do this.

[Ernie]

I hear you saying in this post that it seems mainly a thing of strong spirituality and vibrant Christian life. In your sermon on "No Greater Burden" it seemed more a thing of all these extra cultural expectations and standards.

I'm saying that both are needed. For large numbers of NABs to come into our churches, there needs to be less cultural expectations (more appreciation for diversity), stronger principled living (rather than going with the flow), and more vibrant Christian living (which includes personal walk with God as well as good community dynamics). When all three of these are in good balance, I believe that the oneness and unity of John 17 can be realized to a greater extent.

Can a church stay Mid-Atlantic or Keystone and offer the good parts of the Neo-Anabaptists?

I think it is possible but not likely. Allen Roth believes that most ethnic Anabaptist churches will need to undergo a significant metamorphosis before they can be effective in bringing in people from other backgrounds. From my observation, he is correct. Just because a church is interested in ministry or reaching out does not mean that they will be effective.
The best case senarios that I can think of are congregations that have as many as 6-8 families from non-Anabaptist background. All families who have been willing to take on the cultural expectations of the congregation. This is nothing to sneeze at, as it represents a lot of compassion, willingness to suffer long, hard work, discipling, etc. (You might want to talk to churches like this to see how they do it.)
Then there are congregations who reach out to NAB's, help them become Christians, or help them be better followers of Jesus, even if they are not able to bring these folks into their church. This seems to me to be a less effective ministry but it is still significant in the sight of God I think. I would say that such churches are semi-dysfunctional, yet in the grand scope of things, they are building the kingdom of God and their labor is not in vain. The same is true for individuals who reach out to NAB's but are not able to bring them into their church.

So Ernie, is it possible for a intermediate or moderate conservative congregation to stay in that group, and yet effectively reach out to NABs?

I think so. I have done this most of my life. My reaching out though has been primarily to seekers outside of my own area who have expressed interest in Anabaptism or kingdom Christianity. I have probably helped a few locals become better Christians in their own churches. I have only ever successfully helped one NAB come into the church that I was a part of and that was into a church that is a hybrid neo-Anabaptist/moderate-conservative.

[ABC 123]

The culture sells itself. It is often the allure that draws NAB people to start with. Often disillusionment hits when Scriptural principles blur with the many subtleties and nuances that are dead giveaways to the natives that someone is an "outsider". Many of the cultural aspects are not even subtle.

[aussieandy]

The culture sells itself. It is often the allure that draws NAB people to start with. Often disillusionment hits when Scriptural principles blur with the many subtleties and nuances that are dead giveaways to the natives that someone is an "outsider". Many of the cultural aspects are not even subtle.

Maybe I just found a very accepting group of missionaries going to a new land and excited to attract local NMB's into their congregation but they've made it very clear that we will need to fit into their culture and community and not us trying to change them. With that clear up front, they've been very accommodating and accepting. The challenge for us NABs is to fit in and change our lifestyles to be part of them whilst not expecting to be an ethnic Mennonite. Their accents are different, even the pace at which they speak is different, they're from the USA and so they see things through a different cultural lens. But even with these barriers, we find very common ground on the core principles of Anabaptism, the scriptures, the desire to simplify life and the desire to non-conform with the world. NAB's entering this world are already expecting that those principles have helped shape 'the rules' and whilst we don't expect them all to make logical sense, we adapt to suit. It's a VERY difficult task set before us seekers. I understand why so few outsiders join. But having locals who are members will be what's needed for future growth of anabaptism in this country.

In short, they need us and we need them if we want to help grow the Kingdom out here in the 'colonies'.

That said, what has been interesting is that the biggest movement of church planters has come not from the progressive conservatives or moderates but the ultra conservative churches into new lands like Australia. The other churches would be much, much easier to adjust one's lifestyle into but they don't step outside of the USA from what I can tell. Beachy Amish and BMA being the exceptions to that pattern.