Inside and Outside the Cup

[Bootstrap]

However, I don't have any problem with a religious group agreeing to wear something to identify themselves, as long as they don't look down on others and don't refuse communion and the right hand of fellowship to folks who don't wear the same identity. If somebody or some group thinks wearing a rubber band around their wrist or wooden shoes will help remind them to be the people God wants them to be, more power to them! I don't think the ribbon-of-blue principle is forbidden in the New Testament.

I agree with this.

I might not choose to adopt the practice myself, but if it's helpful to them ... and if it doesn't get conflated with the central teachings of Jesus ... more power to them.

Conflating wineskins with wine is a real danger, though.

[Bootstrap]

You said, regarding the young man selling his possessions -

I think the New Testament treats this kind of good deed as an "inside the cup" thing.
Even then, we should not do these things in order to be seen by men:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

If selling one's possessions and giving to the poor is an "inside the cup" thing, then Jesus' admonition not to give alms in order to be seen of men is talking about an "inside the cup" thing, not an "outside the cup" thing.

I would say the motive for giving is what is "inside the cup", and the actual giving is "outside the cup." And in the case of the rich young ruler, Jesus told him to do some external actions because those actions were going to help him understand what was inside.

I think you are using "outside the cup" to mean anything that others can see.

That's not how I am using it. I am using it to mean the external thing that people polish in order to look good instead of focusing on cleaning the inside of the cup. I think that is what Jesus was getting at with the cup analogy and the whitewashed tomb analogy.

We are simply using the phrase to mean different things.

[GaryK]

Notice it says "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". Jesus is not speaking negatively about sheep's clothing. He's talking about bad fruit coming from hypocritical prophets who wear sheep's clothing. It will become evident at some point that such people are hypocrites. He says it's important to observe the fruit coming from a person's life. I believe Jesus loves to see His people wearing sheep's clothing AND bearing good fruits.

If someone reads that passage and concludes that it teaches us to put on sheep's clothing just like those wolves, I think they are missing the point of the passage.

Is that what you think I was saying?

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

I highlighted what I think that is about. If we want to be sheep, these are things we should do. It doesn't talk about clothing we should put on, it talks about clothing other people.

Did you think I quoted that passage to talk about clothing we should put on?

It's striking that most passages in the NT that discuss clothing do not tell us what kind of clothing to put on. They tell us inside-of-the-cup things:

Matthew 6:

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Romans 13

And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Galatians 3:

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3 (and note what it implies about culture):

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

1 Peter 5:

In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,

“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”

Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

What's striking to me is that you left out a particular passage that specifically talks about how women should and should not dress.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 KJV 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

[ken_sylvania]

You said, regarding the young man selling his possessions -

I think the New Testament treats this kind of good deed as an "inside the cup" thing.
Even then, we should not do these things in order to be seen by men:

If selling one's possessions and giving to the poor is an "inside the cup" thing, then Jesus' admonition not to give alms in order to be seen of men is talking about an "inside the cup" thing, not an "outside the cup" thing.

I would say the motive for giving is what is "inside the cup", and the actual giving is "outside the cup." And in the case of the rich young ruler, Jesus told him to do some external actions because those actions were going to help him understand what was inside.

I think you are using "outside the cup" to mean anything that others can see.

That's not how I am using it. I am using it to mean the external thing that people polish in order to look good instead of focusing on cleaning the inside of the cup. I think that is what Jesus was getting at with the cup analogy and the whitewashed tomb analogy.

We are simply using the phrase to mean different things.

I asked you what you meant by "outside the cup" and the only answer you would give is "appearances." Doesn't what I've been saying make sense using that definition?

Could you clarify for me - is giving alms an "inside of the cup" thing, or an "outside of the cup" thing?

[Bootstrap]

Did you think I quoted that passage to talk about clothing we should put on?

Perhaps you could clarify. What did you mean in the highlighted part below?

Notice it says "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". Jesus is not speaking negatively about sheep's clothing. He's talking about bad fruit coming from hypocritical prophets who wear sheep's clothing. It will become evident at some point that such people are hypocrites. He says it's important to observe the fruit coming from a person's life. I believe Jesus loves to see His people wearing sheep's clothing AND bearing good fruits.

In the passage we were discussing, sheep's clothing didn't seem to be a good thing.

[Bootstrap]

What's striking to me is that you left out a particular passage that specifically talks about how women should and should not dress.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 KJV 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

The first part of this basically says women should not dress to be seen. But it doesn't talk very specifically about how they should dress, it does not call for uniformity in dress, and it does not call for building a culture around distinctive dress.

The second part emphasizes what women should adorn themselves with instead of these fancy clothes- good deeds that are fitting for women who profess to worship God. The proof that they do worship God is in these good deeds, not in their clothing. Which is consistent with the other passages I quoted.

[Bootstrap]

I think you are using "outside the cup" to mean anything that others can see.

That's not how I am using it. I am using it to mean the external thing that people polish in order to look good instead of focusing on cleaning the inside of the cup. I think that is what Jesus was getting at with the cup analogy and the whitewashed tomb analogy.

We are simply using the phrase to mean different things.

I asked you what you meant by "outside the cup" and the only answer you would give is "appearances." Doesn't what I've been saying make sense using that definition?

Could you clarify for me - is giving alms an "inside of the cup" thing, or an "outside of the cup" thing?

I was using appearances in this sense: "trying to keep up appearances", "for the sake of appearances" - in order to be "seen by men". In my last post, I was trying to clarify that (see above).

So why are you giving those alms? And how are you giving those alms? And where is your heart? If I don't know that, I cannot answer your question.

[Neto]

What's striking to me is that you left out a particular passage that specifically talks about how women should and should not dress.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 KJV 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

The first part of this basically says women should not dress to be seen. But it doesn't talk very specifically about how they should dress, it does not call for uniformity in dress, and it does not call for building a culture around distinctive dress.

The second part emphasizes what women should adorn themselves with instead of these fancy clothes- good deeds that are fitting for women who profess to worship God. The proof that they do worship God is in these good deeds, not in their clothing. Which is consistent with the other passages I quoted.

I have heard unbelievers use this passage to scoff at Christianity, saying that "Christian women are supposed to go without any physical clothing". These people aren't stupid - they know that they are purposely ignoring the intended contrast Paul is making.

The meaning is that Christian women should not create their reputation or 'appearance' based on external physical dress, but by "being clothed in righteousness", showing the good works that indicate a right heart, one that seeks to work out God's specific purpose for them in service for Christ. Paul is not really talking about what kind of clothing a believing woman should wear at all, except to say that it should not be ostentatious, intended to impress. I think there is room within this injunction for individuality, just as there is individuality within the gifting of the Holy Spirit - the ways in which the Spirit works through each believer to bring glory to God.

[R7ehr]

Do monks and nuns face these accusations, or are they exempt? Anyone know?

[ken_sylvania]

I think you are using "outside the cup" to mean anything that others can see.

That's not how I am using it. I am using it to mean the external thing that people polish in order to look good instead of focusing on cleaning the inside of the cup. I think that is what Jesus was getting at with the cup analogy and the whitewashed tomb analogy.

We are simply using the phrase to mean different things.

I asked you what you meant by "outside the cup" and the only answer you would give is "appearances." Doesn't what I've been saying make sense using that definition?

Could you clarify for me - is giving alms an "inside of the cup" thing, or an "outside of the cup" thing?

I was using appearances in this sense: "trying to keep up appearances", "for the sake of appearances" - in order to be "seen by men". In my last post, I was trying to clarify that (see above).

So why are you giving those alms? And how are you giving those alms? And where is your heart? If I don't know that, I cannot answer your question.

It seems to me that one has to really torture what Jesus said in order to use that definition. It would then read something like:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, because you do well at the things that you do for the sake of appearances, but the things that you don't do in order to be "seen by men" are full of uncleanness. You blind Pharisee, first clean up the things that you don't do for sake of appearances, so that the things that you do for appearances may also be done right.

Whatever Jesus means by having the outside of the cup clean, He states clearly that it can and will happen if the heart is pure, so it can't be limited to only those things done with wrong motive.

I think Jesus is saying that what is inside the cup is the things others can't see directly - our motives, our desires, what we love, etc. If those things are right we will be acting right - if they aren't right we still might try to act right so that others think we are right, but God hates when we do that.