Modern Day Pharisees

[Ken]

Assuming MennoNet is considered real life, I offer the following example:

I’m not sure MennoNet is real life. I guess I’m asking about non-virtual, face-to-face interactions.

I'm not in the habit of discussing details of my personal experiences on a forum like this, but feel free to share how you do this if you care to.

Also: I don’t understand how Josh’s statement exposes anything. Doesn’t “expose” imply that something secret has been revealed and that its true nature nature is now in the open? The Christian belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful is not exactly a secret.

When you use the word “expose,” what do you mean by it?

Expose - To publicly reveal the true, objectionable nature of something. To place something where it can easily be seen.
synonyms might be lay bare, display, manifest

Judging by Ken's comments one might easily conclude that an increasing percentage of people are unaware that homosexual behavior is actually sinful and abhorrent to God.

Josh didn't claim that homosexuality is a sin.

He claimed that anyone who even promotes tolerance towards gay people will be excluded from the kingdom of heaven.

I do think it is true (and polls show) that a growing number of people do reject that sort of extremely judgmental attitude. And reject the notion that out of all the vast numbers of sins listed in the Bible, gay people are the only ones that God wants us to be especially bigoted towards. Not the greedy, not the lazy, not the prideful, not the lustful, not the jealous and all the other endless sinners who are frankly EVERYONE around us. Just the gay people.

[ken_sylvania]

I’m not sure MennoNet is real life. I guess I’m asking about non-virtual, face-to-face interactions.

I'm not in the habit of discussing details of my personal experiences on a forum like this, but feel free to share how you do this if you care to.

Also: I don’t understand how Josh’s statement exposes anything. Doesn’t “expose” imply that something secret has been revealed and that its true nature nature is now in the open? The Christian belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful is not exactly a secret.

When you use the word “expose,” what do you mean by it?

Expose - To publicly reveal the true, objectionable nature of something. To place something where it can easily be seen.
synonyms might be lay bare, display, manifest

Judging by Ken's comments one might easily conclude that an increasing percentage of people are unaware that homosexual behavior is actually sinful and abhorrent to God.

Josh didn't claim that homosexuality is a sin.

He claimed that anyone who even promotes tolerance towards gay people will be excluded from the kingdom of heaven.

I do think it is true (and polls show) that a growing number of people do reject that sort of extremely judgmental attitude. And reject the notion that out of all the vast numbers of sins listed in the Bible, gay people are the only ones that God wants us to be especially bigoted towards. Not the greedy, not the lazy, not the prideful, not the lustful, not the jealous and all the other endless sinners who are frankly EVERYONE around us. Just the gay people.

Well, he actually said

"Practicing Christianity requires not affirming and promoting and celebrating sin."

and

"The New Testament is really clear that those who follow God can’t give approval to practising “debased” things which “ought not to be done” and which are “contrary to nature”."

and I think you know good and well that neither Josh nor I think that "gay people are the only ones that God wants us to be especially bigoted towards."

[GaryK]

I’d like to hear specifics about what people here are doing in real life to expose sinful ideologies. What does it mean to expose these things?

I have preached numerous sermons about the dangers of some of the prevailing worldly ideologies and have talked about how they are negatively affecting young people in particular. I have used some of Brandon Robertson's teaching videos in some of these sermons as examples of some of these anti-God ideologies.

Did you do this just in church or also in other contexts? Have you done any of this expose with people who are LGBTQ?

I wrote a letter to my now 78 year old gay uncle about 15 years ago letting him know that I do not believe God is pleased with his lifestyle and the gay relationship he was in. Just a few months ago he was at a family reunion and publicly brought up his gayness and asked the group if he would be allowed to bring his partner to future reunions. He said he would like for us to talk to him about it and came up to me and told me that he wants me to talk to him about it. I made clear to him that I do not agree with his assertion that God has ordained for him and his partner to be in a relationship. I assured him of my love for him, which he said he never doubted. Since then he texted me for some contact information, which I gave and again told him I love him, to which he responded, "I love you more than you will ever know".

[GaryK]

I do think it is true (and polls show) that a growing number of people do reject that sort of extremely judgmental attitude.

50 years ago statements like the ones Josh actually made would probably not have been seen as an extremely judgmental attitude by most Christians. The fact that it now is viewed as extremely judgmental by most Christians says more about the direction of modern day Christianity than it does about whether or not the statement is true.

The truth of God has always clashed with worldly, sinful ideologies. The fact that an increasing number of Christians today are siding with these worldly, sinful ideologies over the truth of God, proves the Bible true, that in the last days many will leave the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 NKJV 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

2 Timothy 3:12-17 NKJV 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I'm guessing that most of the NT writers would be considered to have extremely judgmental attitudes by a growing number of Christians today. Just because an increasing number of Christians consider it judgmental in no way makes it true.

[Bootstrap]

I'm guessing that most of the NT writers would be considered to have extremely judgmental attitudes by a growing number of Christians today. Just because an increasing number of Christians consider it judgmental in no way makes it true.

I agree that the NT writers should be our guide. Hence my summaries in this thread.

I think that modern Christians can sometimes have extremely judgmental attitudes that the NT writers preached against more loudly than just about anything else.

Expose - To publicly reveal the true, objectionable nature of something. To place something where it can easily be seen.
synonyms might be lay bare, display, manifest

Judging by Ken's comments one might easily conclude that an increasing percentage of people are unaware that homosexual behavior is actually sinful and abhorrent to God.

I think that's true.

But sometimes the way we speak about them or to them makes it sound like they are abhorrent to us. That's not how Jesus approached sin. I think that an increasing percentage of people are also unaware of the differences between Phariseeism and Christian holiness, clothed in love.

And sometimes we don't do much to explain why we see homosexual sex as sinful, or why anyone else might want to see it that way. We aren't doing a very good job of telling that part.

[Soloist]

But sometimes the way we speak about them or to them makes it sound like they are abhorrent to us. That's not how Jesus approached sin. I think that an increasing percentage of people are also unaware of the differences between Phariseeism and Christian holiness, clothed in love.

What have you said that would make someone think that? Or are you using we figuratively and not including yourself?
How can that behavior change for these “we” without examples?
How do you respond to

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

2Pe 2:12  But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If I read these, I would think quite negatively about the speaker and what was thought of me. How are you quantifying a difference between what the Apostles said and what you are eluding to?

[GaryK]

I'm guessing that most of the NT writers would be considered to have extremely judgmental attitudes by a growing number of Christians today. Just because an increasing number of Christians consider it judgmental in no way makes it true.

I agree that the NT writers should be our guide. Hence my summaries in this thread.

I think that modern Christians can sometimes have extremely judgmental attitudes that the NT writers preached against more loudly than just about anything else.

Do you have anything to say about the point I was making about most of the NT writers being considered to have extremely judgmental attitudes by a growing number of Christians today?

Why, once again, change the subject to something that is pretty much the opposite of the point I was making? That gets tiring.

[Josh]

For what it’s worth, I spend more time raising concerns about personal greed and wealth accumulation than I do sodomy; a key difference is that, as of yet, greed isn’t openly and blatantly celebrated by the mainstream of society. Our society still has a certain shared value that blatant greed is wrong.

Gluttony did not used to be celebrated but the “fat acceptance” movement combined with mass marketing of alcohol and gluttonous consumption of prepared food is also of concern to me and is another thing I speak out against. We don’t yet have “glutton pride parades” though, and if we do, I will also speak out about them.

Imagine if Chase Bank and the Pentagon spent an entire month doing this:

“You should eat as much as you want. Eating brings you pleasure and there’s nothing wrong with gaining 50 or 100 lbs from eating a lot. We are proud to announce our sponsorship of Food Truck Fest 2023, coming to your neighbourhood, with food trucks parked in front of every school library. We also will be hosting Glutton Fest Reading Hour, where children we supplied with 1,000 calorie candy bars and read stories by a morbidly obese man on how much fun it is to eat biting but candy bars and drink soda.”

“We are excited to launch Greed Month! This month we will be celebrating getting rich and hoarding wealth by any means possible. [Pentagon imposes dollar signs over top of their logo.] Stay tuned for an interview with leading defence industry contractors, who explain how they accumulated billions with out help by supplying arms, selling $2,000 toilet seats, and provoking conflicts and wars all over the globe.”

[Bootstrap]

I'm guessing that most of the NT writers would be considered to have extremely judgmental attitudes by a growing number of Christians today. Just because an increasing number of Christians consider it judgmental in no way makes it true.

I agree that the NT writers should be our guide. Hence my summaries in this thread.

I think that modern Christians can sometimes have extremely judgmental attitudes that the NT writers preached against more loudly than just about anything else.

Do you have anything to say about the point I was making about most of the NT writers being considered to have extremely judgmental attitudes by a growing number of Christians today?

Why, once again, change the subject to something that is pretty much the opposite of the point I was making? That gets tiring.

Yes, I was trying to respond to your point. I think that sometimes people may think that the New Testament looks like the judgmentalism they see in some religious people, but that's not what they will see if they look at Jesus.

Then again, I think that many people realize that this kind of judgmentalism is not what you see in Jesus. Of course, Jesus did not soft peddle holiness, but the way he treated sinners was striking. To me, following that example is the best way to show why we believe Scripture is a reliable guide for our lives.

That's why I said what I did. I think I was responding to the same subject. Maybe you and I disagree about how much judgmentalism and sometimes outright hostility is out there. I don't think people are just blowing smoke when they point that out.

[Bootstrap]

I wrote a letter to my now 78 year old gay uncle about 15 years ago letting him know that I do not believe God is pleased with his lifestyle and the gay relationship he was in. Just a few months ago he was at a family reunion and publicly brought up his gayness and asked the group if he would be allowed to bring his partner to future reunions. He said he would like for us to talk to him about it and came up to me and told me that he wants me to talk to him about it. I made clear to him that I do not agree with his assertion that God has ordained for him and his partner to be in a relationship. I assured him of my love for him, which he said he never doubted. Since then he texted me for some contact information, which I gave and again told him I love him, to which he responded, "I love you more than you will ever know".

I very much appreciate this story.

I have also struggled with showing love to relatives who are LGBTQ. It's challenging, but it's really important.