The cape dress: Its origins and evolution over the ages

[ken_sylvania]

I'm not quibbling with the notion that women in the past may have worn clothing similar to the cape dresses worn by modern conservative Anabaptists.

I'm quibbling with your statement that: "the majority of professing Christian women in the west wore cape dresses at one time... "

Women dressed modestly. But not necessarily in that specific style. Certainly not in the 19th Century. In fact, in all my historic family photos which are all Mennonite, it doesn't really start showing up until the 1930s or so. For example, photos of my Mennonite great grandparents in Belleville PA in the early 1900s when they were young look how any Americans would have dressed in 1908. But fast forward to the 1940s and they are dressed in cape dresses and straight coat.

I'm not talking about the 1800's and 1900's. I'm talking about the 16th century among the peasants who were the majority at that time.

This was my quote.

But the majority of professing Christian women in the west wore cape dresses at one time...

Why are you stopping at the the 16th Century which wasn't a particularly devout moment in human history? Why not go all the way back to New Testament times when the majority of professing Christian women probably dressed more like this?

You are arguing for going all the way back to New Testament rules for divorce on the other thread. Why not actual New Testament customs in dress as well? For both men and women? When Paul was talking about women covering their heads in 1 Corinthians, I suspect this is what he was talking about, not Menno-style transparent doilies.

Do you even remember the context of Ernie's statement about there being a point in history where the majority of Western Christian women wore cape dresses? I don't think there was any suggestion that its history proves it is a mandatory practice.

[Ernie]

Why are you stopping at the the 16th Century which wasn't a particularly devout moment in human history? Why not go all the way back to New Testament times when the majority of professing Christian women probably dressed more like this?

You are arguing for going all the way back to New Testament rules for divorce on the other thread. Why not actual New Testament customs in dress as well? For both men and women? When Paul was talking about women covering their heads in 1 Corinthians, I suspect this is what he was talking about, not Menno-style transparent doilies.

Might you have missed what I was replying to originally???

I do think there is something to be said for not drawing the wrong kind of attention to oneself by one's outward appearance but I also think wearing things like cape dresses is doing just that. Especially when it obviously sets Christians apart from the vast majority of professing Christians.

But the majority of professing Christian women in the west wore cape dresses at one time... Why should those who want to keep doing the same thing that they've been doing, rather than trying to keep up with the Jones's, be designated as the culprits?

I'm not advocating that Christians wear cape dresses and I'm not advocating for wearing clothes like the 16th century. And I am not advocating for wearing 1st century clothing. I don't even have a problem with people radically changing their style of clothing.

I was simply replying to Sudsy and others who accuse Plain Anabaptists of wearing clothes that draw attention to consider who changed. My plea is, "Don't accuse those who didn't change of doing things to draw attention and for setting themselves apart from other Christians. Instead, give that admonition to the folks who have radically changed their styles of clothing."

[Ken]

Why are you stopping at the the 16th Century which wasn't a particularly devout moment in human history? Why not go all the way back to New Testament times when the majority of professing Christian women probably dressed more like this?

You are arguing for going all the way back to New Testament rules for divorce on the other thread. Why not actual New Testament customs in dress as well? For both men and women? When Paul was talking about women covering their heads in 1 Corinthians, I suspect this is what he was talking about, not Menno-style transparent doilies.

Might you have missed what I was replying to originally???

I do think there is something to be said for not drawing the wrong kind of attention to oneself by one's outward appearance but I also think wearing things like cape dresses is doing just that. Especially when it obviously sets Christians apart from the vast majority of professing Christians.

But the majority of professing Christian women in the west wore cape dresses at one time... Why should those who want to keep doing the same thing that they've been doing, rather than trying to keep up with the Jones's, be designated as the culprits?

I'm not advocating that Christians wear cape dresses and I'm not advocating for wearing clothes like the 16th century. And I am not advocating for wearing 1st century clothing. I don't even have a problem with people radically changing their style of clothing.

I was simply replying to Sudsy and others who accuse Plain Anabaptists of wearing clothes that draw attention to consider who changed. My plea is, "Don't accuse those who didn't change of doing things to draw attention and for setting themselves apart from other Christians. Instead, give that admonition to the folks who have radically changed their styles of clothing."

I have 3 daughters ages 17-25. They all dress modestly in both senses of the term. The two younger ones delight in going "thrifting" and finding great deals in second hand clothing. Normally you'd see them around school or university wearing jeans, sweaters or sweatshirts, with sneakers or boots and fleece or rain jackets. Every bit as modest as any cape dress or more so. They will dress up on occasion but nothing that the average person would consider immodest.

Would any of them be interested in joining a conservative Anabaptist church? I doubt it for a long list of reasons but among them is the mandatory uniform which none of them would be interested in. I suspect that is an absolute barrier that will prevent them from even hearing anything that a conservative Anabaptist woman might be saying to them. They are engaged in various campus and community churches where they live and go to school if they aren't attending church with us here at home. And are involved in various church-related youth groups, summer jobs as counselors at religious camps, that that sort of thing. And are all finding their own ways.

I have absolutely no problem with any religious groups dressing any way they wish to. From Muslims to Hindus to conservative Anabaptists. But I recognize it for what it is, which as Ernie points out in the case of cape dresses is essentially cosplaying 16th century northern European peasant dress for cultural reasons and to maintain group identity. Not for any specific New Testament dictates.

[ken_sylvania]

I have absolutely no problem with any religious groups dressing any way they wish to. From Muslims to Hindus to conservative Anabaptists. But I recognize it for what it is, which as Ernie points out in the case of cape dresses is essentially cosplaying 16th century northern European peasant dress for cultural reasons and to maintain group identity. Not for any specific New Testament dictates.

So, let me see if I am understanding you correctly.
My Grandpa who wore bib overalls from the time he was a young man until he was an old man. Is it your claim that at some point in his life, by continuing to dress as he always did, he began cosplaying early 20th century menswear for cultural reasons?

And if his son, and if I as his grandson, from the time of our youth also wear the same kind of bib overalls as he did, are we also cosplaying? To me, the idea seems absurd. The word "cosplay" actually has a specific meaning, and it has nothing to do with one regularly dressing as they always did.

[Sudsy]

I seldom hear discussion regarding the 'what' (good deeds) but much discussion on the 'what not' (outward adornments) to be the attraction God desires.

If only the good deeds got anywhere close to the attention that the outward adornments got by some, what might the results be on the unsaved world. Again I think this is another one of those things that get Christians overly focused on themselves and their form of godliness and get a very uncaring attitude toward the lost.

At the conservative Mennonite church where I am a member, there is much, much more focus on what to do as opposed to what not to do.

I would encourage you to focus more on "what" (good deeds) and spend less time focusing on what you think the Mennonites and Amish got wrong (what they should not be doing). You might find more joy and blessing in life that way.

That is great that your church focuses on what to do. And I said 'some' and imo, this holds true amongst Pentecostals and others. And some in the 'what to do' area seem to dodge evangelism and their churches reflect it. I think my posts often focus on the 'good deeds' which are a means to get people to give an ear to the Gospel. Some churches do that, others, imo, are side-tracked by all kinds of other issues. And as I included in that last post, I think in the dress area that the Salvation Army too made more about their uniform than scripture suggests we do.

These things do not affect my joy and being blessed. I don't lose any sleep over what others do but in working out my own salvation I will question certain habits that others do and their beliefs. I often get from the more conservative Christians what their views are on my marriage status. I think some regard this as 'iron sharpens iron' Proverns 27:17 and I have no problem with that approach.

[Ken]

I have absolutely no problem with any religious groups dressing any way they wish to. From Muslims to Hindus to conservative Anabaptists. But I recognize it for what it is, which as Ernie points out in the case of cape dresses is essentially cosplaying 16th century northern European peasant dress for cultural reasons and to maintain group identity. Not for any specific New Testament dictates.

So, let me see if I am understanding you correctly.
My Grandpa who wore bib overalls from the time he was a young man until he was an old man. Is it your claim that at some point in his life, by continuing to dress as he always did, he began cosplaying early 20th century menswear for cultural reasons?

And if his son, and if I as his grandson, from the time of our youth also wear the same kind of bib overalls as he did, are we also cosplaying? To me, the idea seems absurd. The word "cosplay" actually has a specific meaning, and it has nothing to do with one regularly dressing as they always did.

I'm sure that your grandfather got his overalls at Sears & Roebuck or Montgomery Wards just like my grandfather did and countless other farmers of their era. The same generic overalls that millions of other working men wore



Cosplay might be a bit strong. But costume is not. How is it that people can spot which specific church or denomination that the myriad of different conservative Anabaptist women attend from a quarter mile away simply by the color and cut of their dresses and the color and style of the head coverings? My aunts in Belleville can probably sit the corner on sale barn day and name 20+ different local churches that different women attend simply by glancing at their dress. That is obviously intentional.

Here is Pieter Bruegel's "The Wedding Dance" from 1566 supporting Ernie's contention that cape dresses are borrowed from 16th Century European peasant fashion sensibilities.

My daughters are going to say. "No thanks, we live in the 21st Century not in some Renaissance Faire." Does that make them some kind of lesser Christians?

[ken_sylvania]

I have absolutely no problem with any religious groups dressing any way they wish to. From Muslims to Hindus to conservative Anabaptists. But I recognize it for what it is, which as Ernie points out in the case of cape dresses is essentially cosplaying 16th century northern European peasant dress for cultural reasons and to maintain group identity. Not for any specific New Testament dictates.

So, let me see if I am understanding you correctly.
My Grandpa who wore bib overalls from the time he was a young man until he was an old man. Is it your claim that at some point in his life, by continuing to dress as he always did, he began cosplaying early 20th century menswear for cultural reasons?

And if his son, and if I as his grandson, from the time of our youth also wear the same kind of bib overalls as he did, are we also cosplaying? To me, the idea seems absurd. The word "cosplay" actually has a specific meaning, and it has nothing to do with one regularly dressing as they always did.

I'm sure that your grandfather got his overalls at Sears & Roebuck or Montgomery Wards just like my grandfather did and countless other farmers of their era. The same generic overalls that millions of other working men wore

It's quite likely that was the case when he was younger. According to what you're saying, apparently you think that by the time he was an old man these very same bib overalls were a "costume." How is it his fault that his attire became deemed a "costume", and why should he be blamed for drawing attention to himself in his older years by wearing a "costume" instead of "normal clothes"?

[barnhart]

I find the men's clothing in Bruegel's painting disturbing. I'm glad that didn't stick.

[Ken]

So, let me see if I am understanding you correctly.
My Grandpa who wore bib overalls from the time he was a young man until he was an old man. Is it your claim that at some point in his life, by continuing to dress as he always did, he began cosplaying early 20th century menswear for cultural reasons?

And if his son, and if I as his grandson, from the time of our youth also wear the same kind of bib overalls as he did, are we also cosplaying? To me, the idea seems absurd. The word "cosplay" actually has a specific meaning, and it has nothing to do with one regularly dressing as they always did.

I'm sure that your grandfather got his overalls at Sears & Roebuck or Montgomery Wards just like my grandfather did and countless other farmers of their era. The same generic overalls that millions of other working men wore

It's quite likely that was the case when he was younger. According to what you're saying, apparently you think that by the time he was an old man these very same bib overalls were a "costume." How is it his fault that his attire became deemed a "costume", and why should he be blamed for drawing attention to himself in his older years by wearing a "costume" instead of "normal clothes"?

I expect it was entirely habit, comfort, and practicality. Long after he retired from farming and moved off the farm he spent his days tinkering in his massive shop and walked around with all sorts of tools tucked into the pockets of his bib. Scribes and pencils, a mini folding ruler, a little note pad, etc. As I recall, he also kept a pocket watch tucked into his bib since wrist watches were "fancy". So his bib functioned as something of a "man purse". I doubt he was doing it to conform to any sort of fashion or religious norms. In church and fancy events he wore a white shirt and straight coat. Which is definitely more of a religious costume.

We all wear costume every day. Look, I don't criticize anyone for their dress unless they are being inappropriate. But I would also frankly not want to be a part of a church where there are elders or bishops who are policing what I wear according to arbitrary made-up customs that are not based on anything Biblical except in a very general sense. Put another way, dressing modestly is Biblical (although the term modest in a New Testament context really means dressing humbly as in not showing of your wealth). But rigid conformity is not Biblical as far as I can tell. Nowhere in the Bible is there any teaching about conformity to the fashion whims of your church elders.

I get why people do it and that's fine. It is group identity for the most part. And I suppose if one is born to it then fine. It is what you know and it is the culture that you grew up with. No different from any other insular religious or cultural group that self-identifies through dress. I grew up with all kinds of other traditions that we value and pass down to our children that aren't particularly Biblical but valuable nonetheless. That is part of being human.

[RZehr]

I think it is more respectful and at least every bit as accurate, to refer to the way we dress as a custom instead of costume. To intentionally refer to someone’s cultural or religious attire as a costume, degradingly infers that there is pretend factor to it. I don’t think it is insulting to call it, or ask about it, as a costume in a genuinely curious or ignorant way.

It is our custom. It is our customary way of dress. We aren’t play acting, or pretending, by wearing costumes. We aren’t colonial era re-enactors, nor are we dressing for a Halloween party. We don’t take off our clothes and put on contemporary clothes after our work shift is over, or after our party is done.
This is our full time and only clothes. Sarasota not withstanding.