Clothing and Lust

[Ernie]

I agree. We should stop using that framing.

Why is it a problem to talk about purity and modesty in the same paragraph?

There might be ways of addressing both in the same paragraph but I don't think it is right to blame shift lust onto women to justify clothing restrictions.

I like to emphasize respect, in the same way men should respect women by monitoring what they look at, women should respect men by what they wear.

I can heartily agree with this.

[Valerie]

He did not want to sit behind a modestly, dressed women, especially if they were swaying to worship music wearing tight clothes.

Modest or immodest?

Whoops! Immodestly. He loves the way Anabaptist women dress and he came from a very worldly background so was not raised to appreciate modesty but does now.

[Soloist]

The elephant in the room does need to be addressed that much of modern fashion is designed (and often chosen by the wearer) in order to incite lust in others. The designer and the wearer are the one doing the hypersexualising in that case. And it is entirely appropriate to call that out as something the Christian must avoid.

There may be some Christians who end up wearing such attire out of ignorance.

This might be getting a little off track - but I’d appreciate a definition of lust here.

Noticing beauty or bodies is not the same as lust, in my opinion.

Bodies are not evil. God created our bodies and called us “very good.”

Lust is all-consuming. Lust is possessive. Lust does anything it can to get what it wants.

That’s different than noticing a beautiful body or a handsome face.

What Anabaptist people seem to ignore is that there are men who fantasize about Mennonite women. Mennonite dresses are a kink for some.

Again, lust cannot be controlled with certain clothing. Lust comes from WITHIN a person and has nothing to do with clothing.

It’s a slap in the face to Anabaptist victims of abuse when we hear stories about evil men supposedly not raping someone because they had a cape dress on when so many of us were raped wearing the “right clothes”.

We are not Anabaptist. I grew up in Southern California where it was common to run around “too exposed” and it is a fact that men are aroused by “sight”. So we went to more charismatic type churches. Women did not dress modest like the Anabaptist people do. It bothered my husband to sit behind women wearing tight jeans in church. He did not want to sit behind a modestly, dressed women, especially if they were swaying to worship music wearing tight clothes. I mean, men are men. I appreciated that he knew an admitted that it was hard for him to sit behind women like that.

Also, I served in the ministry for several years with people that had different types of strongholds in their life. The men in the class that were there for help admitted they had a hard time with the way women dressed in church. They did not want to have thought they shouldn’t have and women should be sensitive about that and not be a stumbling block to their brothers. I wished I would’ve realized when I was young how I probably stumbled in at church by the way I dressed. I was ignorant at the time.

Wife: I felt so awkward as a teen because I would sometimes stare at the wrong part of a guy and then feel really gross and embarrassed, and I think it was later that I realized it was often because they had really tight pants on. We personally check that when we get clothes for boys.

Sidenote. my dad got quite upset when my babysitter let me buy a bikini in elementary school because he thought it was hypersexualizing children. He also was fussy about me dying my hair or having earrings or things like that. That said, he had a high value on how to treat women, and would have probably wanted to kill someone if they tried harming me or at least make sure they rot in jail the rest of their life. Would’ve been that way for other girls/ladies he knew too.

I do not think modesty is meant to stop abusers. It helps those who are trying to follow God not to be bombarded with as much temptation, but I don’t think it does as much against abuse. You are right that people should never justify abuse, and that we should create a culture where it can be reported and not pushed under the rug.

[Ernie]

Again, such a slap in the face for the many victims of abuse in churches who wore all the right things and were abused and raped by church members. Somehow those stories never make the pulpit.

Its only a slap in the face if you give women the idea they won't be abused if they wear the right clothes.

[Ernie]

I asked my daughters tonight if they were ever led to believe that they are responsible for men's thoughts or if they ever feel any burden to wear modest clothing in order to keep men from thinking impure thoughts. They don't, they said, because they know that is not what I believe. They dress modestly because it is the right thing to do and is respectful of others.

I think it really has to do with the way it is framed and taught. There is a fine line to walk between the two ditches.

[Ernie]

For example: active activities require more than a skirt, in my opinion. Some things really shouldn’t be done in skirts.

For me, Cape dresses in Walmart/town had me really uncomfortable because of how I was looked at. It felt like I was being undressed by men. Tank tops/tshirts and leggings don’t make me stand out as much, which is contrary to what I was taught about modesty protecting you.

I would never wear active wear to my office job, for example. Neither would I show up at Walmart in swimwear.

Where do these "should's" and shouldn'ts come from? What principles are driving this?

???

[Valerie]

For example: active activities require more than a skirt, in my opinion. Some things really shouldn’t be done in skirts.

For me, Cape dresses in Walmart/town had me really uncomfortable because of how I was looked at. It felt like I was being undressed by men. Tank tops/tshirts and leggings don’t make me stand out as much, which is contrary to what I was taught about modesty protecting you.

I would never wear active wear to my office job, for example. Neither would I show up at Walmart in swimwear.

Where do these "should's" and shouldn'ts come from? What principles are driving this?

???

This reminds me of an eastern orthodox family that I know. They dress very much like Amish, the wife and daughters completely covered covering in all long dresses, etc. I was just learning about this style of dressing and I asked him if they felt uncomfortable in places like Walmart as a matter of fact. Because I knew they shop there. He said no we felt like it maybe the only time that people even thought about God when they looked at us. To them they were dressing Scripturally to please the Lord and hoped people would realize the reason who might not give God a thought otherwise. The daughters are 27 & 31 now and out on their own but still dress that way.

[flyingnorm]

Clothing decisions have a lot to do with self expression. Its a message out about the wearer of the clothes to the world around them. We wear clothes (or don’t) to be noticed and identified in a certain preferred manner. The fashion industry is real for a reason.

Lust lives in the heart of men and women who want something that isn’t theirs. Lust is illicit desire. Lust is universal in humans. It is what needs to be crucified in the hearts of believers. It takes many forms including sexual forms.

These are not the same issues but the issues can intersect as lustful people can meet people seeking sexual attention.

In my opinion, the confusion in churches lies with the conflation of sexual assault or violence with sexual desire and attraction. The first has more to do with out of control dehumanizing power and domination dynamics and the second has more to do with human relationship strategies.

[JimFoxvog]

In the past, my wife and I have visited family* nudist resorts. There was no sense that anyone was aroused, no obvious sexual tension or talk. Therefore, I believe a lack of clothing does not produce lust. Maybe a bit of the opposite, where covering produces unhealthy curiosity.

*There are adults-only nudist venues. I hear that they are often sexually charged. We never had interest in such places. The point is that people's motives, not their clothing, make the difference.

[Valerie]

In the past, my wife and I have visited family* nudist resorts. There was no sense that anyone was aroused, no obvious sexual tension or talk. Therefore, I believe a lack of clothing does not produce lust. Maybe a bit of the opposite, where covering produces unhealthy curiosity.

*There are adults-only nudist venues. I hear that they are often sexually charged. We never had interest in such places. The point is that people's motives, not their clothing, make the difference.

I know of men that would disagree with you Jim as I worked in a ministry for 5 years with people struggling with many strongholds and some of them expressed how they struggled with immodesty in church while they were supposed to in worship . They were in a safe environment to admit their struggles. Why did God clothe Adam & Eve? But honestly most people probably look better with clothes on than nude. But tight and or revealing clothing can stir up lust. I e talked to enough men to know this. It’s only in the lady century wear women rebelled about it-
I do appreciate the Smish men don’t wear shirts for the same reason. I remember a restaurant in Newport Beach, California, which was in my area that the women like to go to because the waiters wore shorts and they did talk about their nice tan legs so it can go both ways. And I know women can comment about men’s physique as a “turn on” I first started hearing it freshman year of high school when a guy wore tight pants.