Oasis Chorale dancing

[Neto]

Do you feel the same way about a black choir singing a hymn from Isaac Watts or Fannie Crosby?

I used to feel the way you do, but now I find it interesting to hear music done in a different style than it was written for. A rock song done acapella or bluegrass style, a traditional hymn in country music or contemporary style, etc. It may or may not be as good as the original, but at least it's interesting.

No, I don't. Is that ethnic prejudice?

My feeling is that the hymns are much more culturally broad, the lyrics not being so tied to the specific struggles of a certain people group. In fact, very many hymns, such as those that use sea going illustrations, are not at all "culturally relevant" to any experiences I have had. (However, it is true that while my people have never been sailors, they DID sail across the ocean in ships that depended on wind for power. But it was also a short time experience in terms of their entire lives.)

So maybe it would fall in the same category if a Lutheran choir sang a hymn from the Ausbund? What if a Mennonite choir sang a recently composed black gospel song that did not have roots in slavery, and sang it "Mennonite style", would you have any objections there?

I think what we're talking about here is "cultural appropriation". It's a concept that I think might have some validity but can be taken too far.

No. Very apparently I was not very clear at all. But as I said (I had to go back and look), it's a pet peeve, and I also put the word 'wrong' in double quotation marks. I feel the same way about people taking an old familiar hymn and changing the melody at places, and then adding in a screaming chorus in the middle of it. I also generally do not appreciate (musically) many choral arrangements of old familiar hymns.

(I DO violate this general feeling on certain hymns, such as with Amazing Grace. When I was in youth group we sometimes sang that hymn to the tune of 'House of the Rising Sun', and I also mix in verses from 'I Love to Tell the Story' and "There is a Fountain". I feel a bit 'bad' about 'complaining' about what other people do to other songs, while I do it myself with that one, but it DOES go way back for me, having heard the youth group sing it that way for at least 4 years before I got into the youth. Then I end it with the phrase 'There is a fountain filled with blood...', fading away.

[I also made up a completely different melody for Amazing Grace back when I was in 8th grade, with a chorus that goes:
And I/they/we (varied for the context of each verse) sing Glory, Glory, Glory Hallelujah, I/they/we sing Glory Hallelujah to the LORD! (The last verse goes 'will sing', to match the future context of that verse.)]

In the case of the Negro Spirituals, it basically bothers me because I heard it their way first, and like it that way, so it just bugs me when others take a song out of that certain genre of music, and force it to conform to a different genre. (Maybe I have some African ancestry, way back from the late 15th century.)

I think that R7ehr mentioned not really getting into hearing music that is in an arrangement that comes across as entertainment, and that resonates with me as well. (I hope I'm not putting words into his mouth.) I am actually also SOMETIMES a bit uncomfortable with acapella, IF it seems to be too much of a 'presentation of the human voice', rather than turning the focus on Christ. Now I'll really get into deep water here.....

[Wesleyb]

No. Very apparently I was not very clear at all. But as I said (I had to go back and look), it's a pet peeve, and I also put the word 'wrong' in double quotation marks. I feel the same way about people taking an old familiar hymn and changing the melody at places, and then adding in a screaming chorus in the middle of it. I also generally do not appreciate (musically) many choral arrangements of old familiar hymns.

(I DO violate this general feeling on certain hymns, such as with Amazing Grace. When I was in youth group we sometimes sang that hymn to the tune of 'House of the Rising Sun', and I also mix in verses from 'I Love to Tell the Story' and "There is a Fountain". I feel a bit 'bad' about 'complaining' about what other people do to other songs, while I do it myself with that one, but it DOES go way back for me, having heard the youth group sing it that way for at least 4 years before I got into the youth. Then I end it with the phrase 'There is a fountain filled with blood...', fading away.

[I also made up a completely different melody for Amazing Grace back when I was in 8th grade, with a chorus that goes:
And I/they/we (varied for the context of each verse) sing Glory, Glory, Glory Hallelujah, I/they/we sing Glory Hallelujah to the LORD! (The last verse goes 'will sing', to match the future context of that verse.)]

In the case of the Negro Spirituals, it basically bothers me because I heard it their way first, and like it that way, so it just bugs me when others take a song out of that certain genre of music, and force it to conform to a different genre. (Maybe I have some African ancestry, way back from the late 15th century.)

I think that R7ehr mentioned not really getting into hearing music that is in an arrangement that comes across as entertainment, and that resonates with me as well. (I hope I'm not putting words into his mouth.) I am actually also SOMETIMES a bit uncomfortable with acapella, IF it seems to be too much of a 'presentation of the human voice', rather than turning the focus on Christ. Now I'll really get into deep water here.....

I guess I misunderstood you to be talking about something beyond personal preference.

I used to prefer the more lively, repetitive "Zion's Praises" type of singing. Now the church I attend has both the Mennonite Hymnal and the Christian Hymnal in the pews and I'll admit I feel a little happier when I see the leader walking up with the red book. My wife is the opposite, she prefers the Christian Hymnal because that is what she grew up with. I know in a lot of ways I have gotten more "traditional" in my musical tastes, but I do appreciate new music as well as old music done in new creative ways.

[R7ehr]

It seems to me that there might be (even must be?) space to enjoy music, as art and entertainment. But I guess I find that for myself where my mental blockage is, when art, entertainment, and worship are mixed. I think worship should be pure, and while perhaps there is a place on the peripheral that it could be seen as art, there is never place for it to be intentional entertainment. I think the jealousy of God inherently prohibits that.

Perhaps it makes more sense to keep certain vertical songs to God such as praise,(How Great Thou Art) prayer, (Abide with Me) thanksgiving, (For The Beauty Of The Earth) confession, (Just As I Am) and lamentation, (O Sacred Head, Now Wounded) songs off of the stage. Or invite everyone to join in.

And if the position is that singing and art and entertainment are beneficial and important, then perhaps care could be given to sings songs addressed horizontally to people, such as exhortation, (Stand Up Stand Up for Jesus) invitation, (Just As I Am) testimony, (Blessed Assurance) admonition, (Yield Not to Temptation) teaching, (And Can It Be) or songs about God (A Mighty Fortress Is Our God). Or even non-Christian songs.

Perhaps with all the emphasis on music education and the importance of being able to sing well, there is this important distinction above getting missed about which proper songs that should be sung in which different settings.

[JohnH]

If music education and singing well is so important, then I’d like to see Oasis Chorale and others tour churches and schools giving singing classes instead of putting on performances that, realistically, very few people in the pews will ever be able to match. Performance tells the average person, “you can’t do this”.

[mike]

It seems to me that there might be (even must be?) space to enjoy music, as art and entertainment. But I guess I find that for myself where my mental blockage is, when art, entertainment, and worship are mixed. I think worship should be pure, and while perhaps there is a place on the peripheral that it could be seen as art, there is never place for it to be intentional entertainment. I think the jealousy of God inherently prohibits that.

Perhaps it makes more sense to keep certain vertical songs to God such as praise,(How Great Thou Art) prayer, (Abide with Me) thanksgiving, (For The Beauty Of The Earth) confession, (Just As I Am) and lamentation, (O Sacred Head, Now Wounded) songs off of the stage. Or invite everyone to join in.

And if the position is that singing and art and entertainment are beneficial and important, then perhaps care could be given to sings songs addressed horizontally to people, such as exhortation, (Stand Up Stand Up for Jesus) invitation, (Just As I Am) testimony, (Blessed Assurance) admonition, (Yield Not to Temptation) teaching, (And Can It Be) or songs about God (A Mighty Fortress Is Our God). Or even non-Christian songs.

Perhaps with all the emphasis on music education and the importance of being able to sing well, there is this important distinction above getting missed about which proper songs that should be sung in which different settings.

People stand in front of a group and pray to God all the time on behalf of the entire group, which is often listening and joining in the prayer with their minds and hearts. Why can't we do the same with worship in singing?

[mike]

If music education and singing well is so important, then I’d like to see Oasis Chorale and others tour churches and schools giving singing classes instead of putting on performances that, realistically, very few people in the pews will ever be able to match. Performance tells the average person, “you can’t do this”.

Isn't this the sort of thing that preachers do all the time? Why don't preachers give more classes on good public speaking and preaching skills instead of just standing up there putting on performances that tell the average person they can't do it?

[mike]

My son and daughter plan to go hear Oasis Chorale tonight. I'll have to ask them about the dancing.

[JohnH]

If music education and singing well is so important, then I’d like to see Oasis Chorale and others tour churches and schools giving singing classes instead of putting on performances that, realistically, very few people in the pews will ever be able to match. Performance tells the average person, “you can’t do this”.

Isn't this the sort of thing that preachers do all the time? Why don't preachers give more classes on good public speaking and preaching skills instead of just standing up there putting on performances that tell the average person they can't do it?

It might be good to question the model that only "experts" can ever deliver a message (it is not a belief I personally hold to). I think it would be good if random members in in good standing from the congregation brought a message, teaching, and so on periodically.

The end result of the elitism model is that preachers should be seminary-trained, the worship leader should be an excellent musician (I would note that becoming an excellent musician is something that mostly happens outside of formal instruction), and then recruit a worship team of other excellelent musicians. The end result is just a typical modern day evangelical church. If people want that so badly, I suggest they find their nearest one, attend there, and support it - many of them could use your help.

[mike]

If music education and singing well is so important, then I’d like to see Oasis Chorale and others tour churches and schools giving singing classes instead of putting on performances that, realistically, very few people in the pews will ever be able to match. Performance tells the average person, “you can’t do this”.

Isn't this the sort of thing that preachers do all the time? Why don't preachers give more classes on good public speaking and preaching skills instead of just standing up there putting on performances that tell the average person they can't do it?

It might be good to question the model that only "experts" can ever deliver a message (it is not a belief I personally hold to). I think it would be good if random members in in good standing from the congregation brought a message, teaching, and so on periodically.

The end result of the elitism model is that preachers should be seminary-trained, the worship leader should be an excellent musician (I would note that becoming an excellent musician is something that mostly happens outside of formal instruction), and then recruit a worship team of other excellelent musicians. The end result is just a typical modern day evangelical church. If people want that so badly, I suggest they find their nearest one, attend there, and support it - many of them could use your help.

We agree on all of this.

In our conference and similar ones, even though preaching is restricted to ordained men, it is hardly what I would call performance or elitism, though. At least, not much danger of elitism in terms of performance. Perhaps sometimes a bit of an elitism of position or office, but not in terms of highly trained or skilled delivery. In fact most everything about our public worship, from song leading to teaching to preaching to singing, is all relatively amateur and mundane. I'm not saying this is all that bad, I prefer it to the professionalism of a megachurch where all of that would be done by trained, paid staff; it's just to point out that most of our types of church are in no imminent danger of an elitism model.

[JohnH]

We agree on all of this.

In our conference and similar ones, even though preaching is restricted to ordained men, it is hardly what I would call performance or elitism, though. At least, not much danger of elitism in terms of performance.

I would agree that most plain Anabaptists have kept elitism out of their preaching style (and, indeed, anything worthy of being called a performance is usually absent, although in our history, it certainly did exist when you read about stuff like Brunk's revival meetings).

Perhaps sometimes a bit of an elitism of position or office, but not in terms of highly trained or skilled delivery. In fact most everything about our public worship, from song leading to teaching to preaching to singing, is all relatively amateur and mundane. I'm not saying this is all that bad, I prefer it to the professionalism of a megachurch where all of that would be done by trained, paid staff; it's just to point out that most of our types of church are in no imminent danger of an elitism model.

Perhaps it is due to my history of being around the evangelical church model, but I feel there is a big danger of professionalisation of music in our circles, and it's very dififcult for people who grew up in our circles to see it happen. It's painfully obvious for any of us who have ever held an instrument on stage.

Overall, plain people with a desire to musically perform need to find a way to act out their urges to do so in a place other than in worship settings and in church buildings. Why not go to a nearby coffeehouse, bar, etc. that has open-mic nights and put on a good performance? Or find a local festival that is looking for singers/musicians? There are plenty of opportunities and they might even open up an opportunity for witness and evangelism. I question why these kind of professional performances need to happen inside church walls.

(I have said the same thing to people who feel a strong need that they need to preach, pastor, disciple - there are plenty of opportunities to do so that exist outside that of an active congregation meeting, and indeed the need is very strong.)