Ordaining women to offices of minister, bishop, elder, pastor, etc.

[barnhart]

]
It isn't clear to me that "preacher" is a role formally organized by God. The contemporary, really protestant, emphasis on a long monologue being the center of the service is a relatively new invention and only support biblically by smallest of evidences. Regarding people bringing prophetic words, it seems women also, per Corinthians 13, are empowered to bring something. Bringing a prophetic word in the assembly seems like a totally different subject then the 'elder' question or church governance question.

I wish more churches would consider this, moving churches into single purpose buildings with a set performance oriented service has dramatically reduced the spaces where women have freedom to exercise gifts. Conservative Anabaptists have sidestepped this to some degree through non-paid, bi-vocational ministry which does a lot to level hierarchy and hold up a volunteer, service oriented model where the work of the church is expected to be carried out by volunteers.

[JohnH]

]
It isn't clear to me that "preacher" is a role formally organized by God. The contemporary, really protestant, emphasis on a long monologue being the center of the service is a relatively new invention and only support biblically by smallest of evidences. Regarding people bringing prophetic words, it seems women also, per Corinthians 13, are empowered to bring something. Bringing a prophetic word in the assembly seems like a totally different subject then the 'elder' question or church governance question.

I wish more churches would consider this, moving churches into single purpose buildings with a set performance oriented service has dramatically reduced the spaces where women have freedom to exercise gifts. Conservative Anabaptists have sidestepped this to some degree through non-paid, bi-vocational ministry which does a lot to level hierarchy and hold up a volunteer, service oriented model where the work of the church is expected to be carried out by volunteers.

My general experience with deacons' and ministers' wives is that they have plenty of opportunity to exercise their gifts - perhaps more opportunities than they would prefer.

[Ernie]

I think a New Testament case can be made for patriarchy, complementarianism, or egalitarianism, in the home or in the church, depending on which verses are emphasized. Rather than take a position, I prefer letting each concept have expression in its proper situation, as long as it does not violate the teachings of other NT scriptures for that situation. I lean towards complementarianism as a functional reality without embracing it as a theological reality.

Likewise, I think a NT case can be made for women being completely silent in the gathered assembly (except for singing), praying or speaking in the gathered assembly as long as it is not teaching, or praying and prophesying in the gathered assembly depending on which verses are emphasized. Again, without better clarity in the NT, I think God can bless honest efforts to follow all the teachings in the NT regarding women speaking in the church. If a person picks and chooses the verses that suit his worldview, and let those verses outrank all the other verses, I don't consider this an honest or honorable way of approaching the New Testament.

I mostly agree with this post...however, it isn't clear to me that there is a clear exception for singing if one goes with a hard literal approach of "being silent."

I'm glad we did not adopt Grebel's position on congregational singing, silencing not just the women but the men as well.

I am too...but I can understand his logic. What I am pushing on is the logic that a hard reading of the text, makes it clear that singing is allowed by women in the assembly. I think that "exception" is "softening" of Paul's apparent words.

I think Paul defines his own term, "silence" as follows.

He says, "Let your women keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak."

He says further, "If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to chat in the assembly."

And further. " Let a woman learn in quietness with all submissiveness. But I don’t permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness."

Nothing in these definitions give me the idea that Paul was addressing singing.

[MattY]

I also read books written by women. This includes Anabaptist women, such as Anything but Simple, written by Lucinda J. Miller.

I find it interesting that people continue to refer to Mrs. Kinsinger by her maiden name, although given that she general promotes feminist/progressive viewpoints, perhaps it is appropriate.

I simply couldn't remember her married name and felt that in this case, since it was still her name when she wrote the book and it's the name that the book gives as its author, it would be fine.

[MattY]

May or may not be helpful, but in my view, school isn't church. We don't do communions, baptisms, weddings, or funerals. So women voicing inspirational thoughts, prophetic words from scripture, etc...seems appropriate to me and pretty much noncontroversial outside of a church context?

I also read books written by women. This includes Anabaptist women, such as Anything but Simple, written by Lucinda J. Miller. Also it includes women I might disagree with in various areas, such as women's ordination. I've read a couple books written by Tish Harrison Warren, an Anglican priest, for instance. I agree with the way I saw Tim Challies put it: God has reserved some roles for men (husband, presbyter, preacher). But He gives gifts to men and women alike. This includes gifts - and abilities - like skill in writing, skill in exegesis, and spiritual wisdom.

It isn't clear to me that "preacher" is a role formally organized by God. The contemporary, really protestant, emphasis on a long monologue being the center of the service is a relatively new invention and only support biblically by smallest of evidences. Regarding people bringing prophetic words, it seems women also, per Corinthians 13, are empowered to bring something. Bringing a prophetic word in the assembly seems like a totally different subject then the 'elder' question or church governance question.

Well, I think preaching to the gathered assembly involves assuming an authoritative role (at least for that specific time, even if it's not done by an elder/overseer), because it includes teaching and interpreting the Word of God; and thus it would be inappropriate for a woman to do that in the gathered ekklesia with men present. There is a formal authoritativeness to preaching in that context, as there is to teaching. Praising, prophesying, or testifying, however, can be done by anyone, including women covered according to 1 Cor. 11.

There's also no authoritative role when simply learning from a woman in the occurrences and conversations of everyday life, as well as learning from what she has written.

I actually agree with you, regarding the historic role of preaching in the service. Paul simply doesn't list preaching as something that happens in every service, nor does he list it among the duties of the church leaders. Teach, yes. Preach a sermon, no. In my opinion, Scripture describes two types of people who preached the Gospel (in the gathered assembly, at least) in the first century: apostles, and evangelists. "Preach the word, do the work of an evangelist," Paul said to Timothy. That should considered a tautology, a redundancy: repeating the point in different words for emphasis. The gift of evangelism is the gift of preaching. If there was no evangelist or apostle present, presumably a church service would've involved singing, reading the Word, teaching, discussion, prophesy, tongues/interpretation, and the breaking of bread (Communion). However while [*]centering[/*] the service around a sermon might be a Protestant thing, having a "homily" or sermon in every service and limiting the preaching to ONLY the leaders of the church seems to go way back, second century probably in my estimation. Descriptions of services in the second century (such as from Justin Martyr) appear to speak of the church leaders preaching as normal in a service.

What do I think happened? Probably after the apostles died, in the chaos of the early second century, with false teachers all over the place and the future of the church uncertain, leaders found it necessary to put a stop to any lay evangelists preaching to stem the tide of false teachings. Certainly after the Montanists, a lot of charismatic-like stuff became looked on askance. I can also imagine that churches liked having leaders deliver a sermon every Sunday. It brought a rhythm and predictability to the service. And since the New Testament doesn't spell out exactly how to have a service, this can be one of those things where it's fine for churches to make their own decisions.

[cooper]

Amongst Anabaptists, conservative Anabaptists generally do not think the Bible teaches women should be ordained to such offices. However, a wife of a deacon, bishop, or minister does tend to co-labour alongside him.

I belong to a congregation that ordains women. That was a change from my background in a conservative Mennonite church. But many of the ways I see female pastors serving overlap with what wives of ordained men do in a conservative Anabaptist congregation. I do not think marriage should be the basis for women to be blessed by the church to exercise pastoral gifts. I believe God gifts and calls individuals, not couples. Of course, spouses still play a supporting role.

[JohnH]

Amongst Anabaptists, conservative Anabaptists generally do not think the Bible teaches women should be ordained to such offices. However, a wife of a deacon, bishop, or minister does tend to co-labour alongside him.

I belong to a congregation that ordains women. That was a change from my background in a conservative Mennonite church. But many of the ways I see female pastors serving overlap with what wives of ordained men do in a conservative Anabaptist congregation. I do not think marriage should be the basis for women to be blessed by the church to exercise pastoral gifts. I believe God gifts and calls individuals, not couples. Of course, spouses still play a supporting role.

The obvious question is if pastors "exercise authority" over congregants. (If I recall correctly, the LMC had a fig leaf for this for a while with not having female bishops, but apparently they don't hold to that position anymore.)

[cooper]

Amongst Anabaptists, conservative Anabaptists generally do not think the Bible teaches women should be ordained to such offices. However, a wife of a deacon, bishop, or minister does tend to co-labour alongside him.

I belong to a congregation that ordains women. That was a change from my background in a conservative Mennonite church. But many of the ways I see female pastors serving overlap with what wives of ordained men do in a conservative Anabaptist congregation. I do not think marriage should be the basis for women to be blessed by the church to exercise pastoral gifts. I believe God gifts and calls individuals, not couples. Of course, spouses still play a supporting role.

The obvious question is if pastors "exercise authority" over congregants. (If I recall correctly, the LMC had a fig leaf for this for a while with not having female bishops, but apparently they don't hold to that position anymore.)

I would understand 1 Timothy 2:12 as having in view misuse of authority rather than Christ-like leadership. The Greek work behind "exercise authority" is authentein, which many understand as "usurp authority" or "domineer", which is a way of leading that Jesus condemns in Matthew 20:25. Paul commands husbands to love their wives, this does not mean that loving your spouse is only a command to husbands. Likewise, wrong use of authority also applies to male pastors. In my congregation, men and women work together in leadership and authority is understood as something to be shared rather than wielded by one person.

[barnhart]

I actually agree with you, regarding the historic role of preaching in the service. Paul simply doesn't list preaching as something that happens in every service, nor does he list it among the duties of the church leaders. Teach, yes. Preach a sermon, no. In my opinion, Scripture describes two types of people who preached the Gospel (in the gathered assembly, at least) in the first century: apostles, and evangelists. "Preach the word, do the work of an evangelist," Paul said to Timothy. That should considered a tautology, a redundancy: repeating the point in different words for emphasis. The gift of evangelism is the gift of preaching. If there was no evangelist or apostle present, presumably a church service would've involved singing, reading the Word, teaching, discussion, prophesy, tongues/interpretation, and the breaking of bread (Communion). However while [*]centering[/*] the service around a sermon might be a Protestant thing, having a "homily" or sermon in every service and limiting the preaching to ONLY the leaders of the church seems to go way back, second century probably in my estimation. Descriptions of services in the second century (such as from Justin Martyr) appear to speak of the church leaders preaching as normal in a service.

I think preaching gained ground in the reformation because the reformers understood at some level their congregants needed to be converted. Anabaptism started from the other end, only congregating the converted so this wasn't as much a felt need but over time the draw toward dedicated buildings and hierarchical structures is pretty strong. Still one could imagine another form Anabaptist worship assembly could have taken.

I wonder if the persistence of cell group type movements is evidence of a latent or hidden value of non hierarchical small group worship similar to Sunday school. When the Anabaptists borrowed Sunday school from the Presbyterians they changed the form from child catechism to small group, open format Bible study. One way to analyze that old order split might be the progressives adopting and adapting Sunday school were reaching to recover a lost value of participatory, non hierarchical worship and Bible study.

Now it seems impossible to imagine a worship gathering without men on elevated platforms speaking into microphones.

[Ernie]

I belong to a congregation that ordains women. That was a change from my background in a conservative Mennonite church. But many of the ways I see female pastors serving overlap with what wives of ordained men do in a conservative Anabaptist congregation. I do not think marriage should be the basis for women to be blessed by the church to exercise pastoral gifts. I believe God gifts and calls individuals, not couples. Of course, spouses still play a supporting role.

The obvious question is if pastors "exercise authority" over congregants. (If I recall correctly, the LMC had a fig leaf for this for a while with not having female bishops, but apparently they don't hold to that position anymore.)

I would understand 1 Timothy 2:12 as having in view misuse of authority rather than Christ-like leadership. The Greek work behind "exercise authority" is authentein, which many understand as "usurp authority" or "domineer", which is a way of leading that Jesus condemns in Matthew 20:25. Paul commands husbands to love their wives, this does not mean that loving your spouse is only a command to husbands. Likewise, wrong use of authority also applies to male pastors. In my congregation, men and women work together in leadership and authority is understood as something to be shared rather than wielded by one person.

And how do you explain the verses about keeping silence, asking their husbands at home, and not teaching?