What are your thoughts on alternatives to military service if drafted?

[barnhart]

Yes. One of my ancestors may have been one those stubborn Virginians that vexed Jackson. He was assigned to driving a supply wagon and when they came to the Ohio River he took his team down to the water, dove in and swam to freedom. It was risky as deserters were shot.

[ohio jones]

Mostly of a more liberal persuasion. I did about a year of grad school, and I generally avoid mentioning it. I know no conservative Mennonite minister with a seminary background.

That may be, but JohnH did not limit his scope to conservatives, and his comments obviously do not apply to all Mennonites.

[Neto]

So then Mennonites and others should not have voluntarily fed soldiers and taken care of wounded soldiers throughout our storied past? Weren't they helping the war?
And what about being forced to feed soldiers and care for wounded soldiers? Wasn't that helping the war?
....

This was at the center of the sometimes heated discussions in the colonies, in the early 1860's, as "the writing was on the wall" regarding the almost certain loss of the privilegium offered to Dutch Mennonites in Prussia a century or so earlier, to convince them to move to the new Russian territory (Ukraine). My impression is that most felt that offering medical care for the soldiers was an act of compassion that fell within the command of Jesus, when he told his listeners to "go the second mile" for a Roman soldier. (And also, the commands of the Law as handed to Moses directly from God, to show compassion and help even animals, on the Sabbath yet, too.) The Mennonites in Russia willingly offered medical care to everyone, but they "knew' that full military service might well be the next step, and it was, for those who stayed.

If a man was seriously wounded while committing murder, should we offer medical care? I think so. Should we, through words of admonition urge the family of the victim not to kill the perpetrator? (I did that once, and I sure hope that it was not a grave sin.)

I will say that I have taken care, in my lifetime, of both the Crips and the Bloods after a gang fight. I also took care of the cop that shot them.

We do our best to take care of all who come under my care, without ever asking how they got there. Once they are seriously wounded, or are a prisoner, they are treated the same as any other. We don’t ask questions.

Not at all to belittle or diminish the importance of the service and care you gave, but I had known both the killer and the victim from their childhood on up, as well as having known the parents of both, for years. However, I have only been in this position once. We were out at the mission center at the time it happened, and got there the day after, with medical supplies to attempt to save the young man who had been shot in the stomach with a shot gun. A Brazilian (Christian) nurse went along as well, but he had died the day before. I was still glad that she was along, because cultural 'rules' prevented me from direct contact with the mother. This nurse comforted her as best she could, considering the language barrier, and I will never forget the real compassion she demonstrated.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Refusal to kill was a serious problem through WW2, I read a book about it. By Vietnam they had shifted training to overcome the reticence to kill.

I believe this book is called "On Killing". I don't remember the author. I've heard of the book but havent read it.

[Ernie]

What if you refused to be made a war hero, just like Paul and Barnabas refused to be worshipped as gods?

I expect you would end up right there in that cell that you were trying to avoid in the first place. Remember what happened to Paul in that account?

Yeah, I would not be surprised if I ended up in a cell. I'm not opposed to spending time in a cell. Just trying to think at what point it would be necessary to spend time in a cell.

If you were to join the army as a medic, would you follow the commands of the army officers, or would you follow Christ? The single primary purpose of the army is diametrically opposed to the kingdom of Christ. The army exists to kill, maim, destroy, and overpower the enemy. Jesus says to love your enemy.

That is a good question. I may decide to help some wounded enemy soldiers and get shot or court martialed for doing so.

[Ernie]

If I recall correctly, Ernie, I believe that you have previously expressed that you find it difficult to support what you consider unwise or wrong decisions made by your superiors - even when those individuals are doing their best to follow Christ and when you have no reason to question their Christian integrity.

I could have easily said something like this although I am not remembering it at the moment. If you think of more context, feel free to share it.

Feel free to correct me if I'm misrepresenting things here. But if that is at all the case - how could you expect to be in a position to obey orders when those orders are coming from men who are not following after Christ - from men whose goal is to destroy other men? Would you expect to have the liberty to choose which orders to obey and which to disobey?

You make a good point. I can easily imagine situations in which I might need to disobey orders which again land me in the prison cell. I'm just questioning whether a person needs to start out in a prison cell I guess. It is my impression that Apostolic Anabaptists allow non-combatant service so maybe they could help us with some of these questions and provide some anecdotes from the past or from the present in Ukraine.

[barnhart]

Refusal to kill was a serious problem through WW2, I read a book about it. By Vietnam they had shifted training to overcome the reticence to kill.

I believe this book is called "On Killing". I don't remember the author. I've heard of the book but havent read it.

Yes, I think that is right. It's definitely thought provoking if you run out of books to read.

[Ernie]

Yes. One of my ancestors may have been one those stubborn Virginians that vexed Jackson. He was assigned to driving a supply wagon and when they came to the Ohio River he took his team down to the water, dove in and swam to freedom. It was risky as deserters were shot.

It seems to me that there have been many Anabaptists over the centuries who participated in such noncombatant services unwillingly and like some Christian soldiers in the early church, refused to take the lives of other human beings. I understand that leaving the Roman military would have resulted in execution, so Christians were allowed to serve as long as they were not take the lives of others.

[barnhart]

Yes. One of my ancestors may have been one those stubborn Virginians that vexed Jackson. He was assigned to driving a supply wagon and when they came to the Ohio River he took his team down to the water, dove in and swam to freedom. It was risky as deserters were shot.

It seems to me that there have been many Anabaptists over the centuries who participated in such noncombatant services unwillingly and like some Christian soldiers in the early church, refused to take the lives of other human beings. I understand that leaving the Roman military would have resulted in execution, so Christians were allowed to serve as long as they were not take the lives of others.

I can understand this but it's not where I would take my stand. Also participation in a voluntary military has different implications than serving under a forced draft.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Yes. One of my ancestors may have been one those stubborn Virginians that vexed Jackson. He was assigned to driving a supply wagon and when they came to the Ohio River he took his team down to the water, dove in and swam to freedom. It was risky as deserters were shot.

It seems to me that there have been many Anabaptists over the centuries who participated in such noncombatant services unwillingly and like some Christian soldiers in the early church, refused to take the lives of other human beings. I understand that leaving the Roman military would have resulted in execution, so Christians were allowed to serve as long as they were not take the lives of others.

From what I understand, the Roman Empire's army served as its police force, military, and public infrastructure (road) construction crew. If the military in my nation were deployed to serve the public good through nonviolent means like building roads, I would feel better serving (though I wouldn't be all the way there yet).