As Christians, what kind of government do we fear?

[MaxPC]

I fear all governments.

How did you come about this approach, do you find a biblical basis for it.

Seems like the sword is a good metaphor for what it means to fear government.

I fear the sword not because of what it is, but because of how it might be used (as history continues to bear witness). Used justly and prudently it can help contain evil in a fallen world (Rom 13), but used unjustly and malevolently it becomes a beastly evil of its own (Rev 13).

The use of the sword, like the exercise of governmental coercive power, is outside of the will of Christ for his followers. However, as an observer, I regard governments like I regard the sword - hopeful that they will use their power justly, fearful that they will abuse it, and always watching with a wary eye.

I quite like this, Dan. Your emphasis on parsing the different uses of the sword brought to my mind another sword in Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

[Robert]

I fear all governments.

How did you come about this approach, do you find a biblical basis for it.

I use a loose definition of fear here. I do not trust and do not have great confidence in any government, since it is a structure created by and run by humans.

I think the US Constitution is a great document and a very sound idea. I also know, as the founders did, that humans will corrupt it and bend it to ways it was never intended to go. I think we all need to hold it and other forms of government accountable to and by the people. China is doing that some now. They eased up on the Covid restrictions when the people said "No more."

The purpose of government is to amass power from the people to govern over the people. Anything that holds more power than one person should have I "fear" (doubt and distrust).

I do not say we should not give some of that power to a government, I am saying we do have to, but we should not be blind sheep, but weary as a wolf.

[PetrChelcicky]

As for Ken's objections in November, I then contacted Mr. Roberts. It seems that he wrote purely from memory, and he simply told me that I could research the exact data as well as he himself (???).This didn't sound very hopeful and I was not eager to try it it - but in fact he was nearly right.
I quote Wikipedia:
"In 1980, Congress passed the first comprehensive federal child protective services act, the Adoption Assistance and Child Welfare Act of 1980, which focused on family preservation efforts to help keep families together and children out of foster care or other out-of-home placement options.[12]
Partly funded by the federal government, child protective services (CPS) agencies were first established in response to the 1974 CAPTA, which mandated that all states establish procedures to investigate suspected incidents of child maltreatment.[13] "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pro ... es#History

So the offices were created between 1974 and 1980 with the 1980 act as the concluding event. Now my argument has been that the Amirault case was not simply a result of a popular "moral panic", but a result of a quasi-Puritan development of government and only then bureaucracies would be eager to find out "sins" and punish "sinners" at unexpected places. This is of course a far wider theory than the mere factoids given by Wikipedia, and I admit that Wikipedia is not suffficient for to "prove" my theory. It rather eliminates some simple objections to it.

[Chris]

None. The government is evil. The Bible says the "rulers of this world...evil principalities and powers".

The idea is to Christianize the entire planet. All men, women, and children. We would not longer need a government then. People generally can't see it because they are too blind to realize that Christianity is the perfect solution to all life issues, constructs of society, and perfect charity.

Romans 13 is about obeying a government that deals with the evil world. It never said a Christian world needed a government.

[Szdfan]

None. The government is evil. The Bible says the "rulers of this world...evil principalities and powers".

The idea is to Christianize the entire planet. All men, women, and children. We would not longer need a government then. People generally can't see it because they are too blind to realize that Christianity is the perfect solution to all life issues, constructs of society, and perfect charity.

Romans 13 is about obeying a government that deals with the evil world. It never said a Christian world needed a government.

I thought about 1 Samual 8 as I read this. Israel and Judah were both non-centralized tribal societies governed by Judges and yet the elders asked for a King and God relented.

There will always be government. At a time when most of the West identified as Christian, government still existed and Christianity became one of the principalities and powers. Christianity does not lead to perfect societies. Who here attends a perfect church? Considering that there's a lot of infighting and controversy in churches, why should we assume that Christians could run the world perfectly?

[Josh]

None. The government is evil. The Bible says the "rulers of this world...evil principalities and powers".

The idea is to Christianize the entire planet. All men, women, and children. We would not longer need a government then. People generally can't see it because they are too blind to realize that Christianity is the perfect solution to all life issues, constructs of society, and perfect charity.

Romans 13 is about obeying a government that deals with the evil world. It never said a Christian world needed a government.

I thought about 1 Samual 8 as I read this. Israel and Judah were both non-centralized tribal societies governed by Judges and yet the elders asked for a King and God relented.

There will always be government. At a time when most of the West identified as Christian, government still existed and Christianity became one of the principalities and powers. Christianity does not lead to perfect societies. Who here attends a perfect church? Considering that there's a lot of infighting and controversy in churches, why should we assume that Christians could run the world perfectly?

Jesus can run the world perfectly.

[Bootstrap]

Jesus can run the world perfectly.

But we'll probably have to wait for that ... often, while grieving the world we live in until then.

[Ken]

None. The government is evil. The Bible says the "rulers of this world...evil principalities and powers".

The idea is to Christianize the entire planet. All men, women, and children. We would not longer need a government then. People generally can't see it because they are too blind to realize that Christianity is the perfect solution to all life issues, constructs of society, and perfect charity.

Romans 13 is about obeying a government that deals with the evil world. It never said a Christian world needed a government.

I thought about 1 Samual 8 as I read this. Israel and Judah were both non-centralized tribal societies governed by Judges and yet the elders asked for a King and God relented.

There will always be government. At a time when most of the West identified as Christian, government still existed and Christianity became one of the principalities and powers. Christianity does not lead to perfect societies. Who here attends a perfect church? Considering that there's a lot of infighting and controversy in churches, why should we assume that Christians could run the world perfectly?

Jesus can run the world perfectly.

To the contrary. He knew better than to even try despite many people hoping that he would.

[Soloist]

To the contrary. He knew better than to even try despite many people hoping that he would.

He actually said that His kingdom was not of this world. He is perfectly capable of doing anything He desires to do. The thing is, He wants willing followers. A government doesn’t care as long as you obey their laws.

[Chris]

None. The government is evil. The Bible says the "rulers of this world...evil principalities and powers".

The idea is to Christianize the entire planet. All men, women, and children. We would not longer need a government then. People generally can't see it because they are too blind to realize that Christianity is the perfect solution to all life issues, constructs of society, and perfect charity.

Romans 13 is about obeying a government that deals with the evil world. It never said a Christian world needed a government.

I thought about 1 Samual 8 as I read this. Israel and Judah were both non-centralized tribal societies governed by Judges and yet the elders asked for a King and God relented.

There will always be government. At a time when most of the West identified as Christian, government still existed and Christianity became one of the principalities and powers. Christianity does not lead to perfect societies. Who here attends a perfect church? Considering that there's a lot of infighting and controversy in churches, why should we assume that Christians could run the world perfectly?

I'd take imperfect Christians working together any day .... ANY MOMENT... Over governments. Horrible wars, horrible murders, horrible trades/sanctions, fiat currencies, deception, secrecy, good ol boy's club, and often funding two sides of war. Corrupt, bought out, sold out.

I'd much rather work with an imperfect brother or church under Christ.

I agree there will always be a government, because the world will never fully be true Christians.

Example - A man I know got in front of a judge for Jury duty. He told the judge "In my faith I can't judge another man". The judge said "If everybody thought like you we wouldn't have juries". The man said "If everybody thought like me we wouldn't need a jury".

What the man did not say (appropriately) is "nor would we need a judge of this world, nor a prison, nor officers of law, nor courts, nor city councils, nor congress, nor presidencies, nor senates ..... "