Three types of Anabaptists - which one are you? [POLL]

[Ken]

I have yet to meet any Amish who stump for stereotypically leftist things. I think it’s because they don’t read nor get influenced by leftists. Whereas they often are influenced by right leaning publications, neighbours, and so forth.

Most Amish are immediately turned off by the left’s very heavy pro lgbt push. The last political conversation I had with one consisted of him expressing that he thinks Biden is unfit to be a President.

I don't know what "stereotypically leftist" things are. LGBT rights is a very small part of the Democratic agenda. But I have talked with Amish who are very interested in environmental affairs, climate change, and things like non-chemical based organic farming, GMO foods, and that sort of thing. Which are frankly more liberal than conservative priorities.

I have no doubt that a majority of Amish tilt conservative when it comes to politics. That seems self-evident. I'm just suggesting it isn't a good thing if conservative religion and conservative politics become too conflated. One should be able to be Amish or MCUSA and not have their denomination govern their political opinions to the extent that they have them. This country used to be more like that decades ago. Not so much anymore.

[Josh]

I have yet to meet any Amish who stump for stereotypically leftist things. I think it’s because they don’t read nor get influenced by leftists. Whereas they often are influenced by right leaning publications, neighbours, and so forth.

Most Amish are immediately turned off by the left’s very heavy pro lgbt push. The last political conversation I had with one consisted of him expressing that he thinks Biden is unfit to be a President.

I don't know what "stereotypically leftist" things are. LGBT rights is a very small part of the Democratic agenda. But I have talked with Amish who are very interested in environmental affairs, climate change, and things like non-chemical based organic farming, GMO foods, and that sort of thing. Which are frankly more liberal than conservative priorities.

I have no doubt that a majority of Amish tilt conservative when it comes to politics. That seems self-evident. I'm just suggesting it isn't a good thing if conservative religion and conservative politics become too conflated. One should be able to be Amish or MCUSA and not have their denomination govern their political opinions to the extent that they have them. This country used to be more like that decades ago. Not so much anymore.

There is no mainstream political party in America with a position against GMOs or pro-organic farming. The government indeed is busy persecuting people who try to do things like use non-chemical means of animal slaughter or sell non-pasteurised milk. They often single out Amish people for trying to put their slaughterhouses out of business.

LGBT absolutely is the main lynchpin of the Democratic Party (along with abortion). No sincere Christian can support that package.

[Bootstrap]

2/3 of us say we identify with this:

2) "Third-Way" Anabaptist – Biblicist who prioritize radical obedience to Christ & His apostles - including non-resistance, non-accumulation, sexual & marital purity, exceptional love and forgiveness, servanthood, and empathy for the poor, marginalized, & displaced; Worldview framed by “two-kingdom theology” - working toward both the present and future reign of Christ; Aloof from politics & voting, and deliberately independent from progressive and conservative ideologies, seeing them ultimately in conflict with Christ’s Kingdom; Rejecting both secular globalism and nationalism; Valuing the sanctity of all life - against all forms killing including war, euthanasia, abortion, & capital punishment.

But even in this thread, we are not talking about how to put that into focus. And for the most part, people aren't saying what they themselves need to do to focus on being like this, they are saying what other people need to do. People aren't talking about what we can agree on, despite our political preferences, and how we can pull together to build a visible Christianity that looks like Jesus and speaks like Jesus, drawing the kinds of people Jesus drew, offending the people Jesus offended.

And that, I think, is the problem in a nutshell.

Jesus' disciples included a zealot and a tax collector. Somehow, they figured out how to get along, even though they were polar opposites politically.

[RZehr]

But I have talked with Amish who are very interested in environmental affairs, climate change, and things like non-chemical based organic farming, GMO foods, and that sort of thing. Which are frankly more liberal than conservative priorities.

I suspect that the Amish are very interested in these things for the simple fact that these are in their economic self interest. I remember not too long ago that conservative Anabaptists strongly defended their right to use conventional farming practices. They ‘conserved’ the status quo, until it became a money losing proposition.
This swing of position and new found conviction, corresponds about perfectly with their transition to organic farming. Coincidental timing? I think not.
Very little to do with politics. Much to do with balancing a checkbook.

[Ken]

But I have talked with Amish who are very interested in environmental affairs, climate change, and things like non-chemical based organic farming, GMO foods, and that sort of thing. Which are frankly more liberal than conservative priorities.

I suspect that the Amish are very interested in these things for the simple fact that these are in their economic self interest. I remember not too long ago that conservative Anabaptists strongly defended their right to use conventional farming practices. They ‘conserved’ the status quo, until it became a money losing proposition.
This swing of position and new found conviction, corresponds about perfectly with their transition to organic farming. Coincidental timing? I think not.
Very little to do with politics. Much to do with balancing a checkbook.

That is my point exactly. Amish, like every other religious group and community should pursue their own enlightened self-interest which probably means engaging in a wide variety of ideas that don't necessarily match up with partisan politics as they are practiced today. The Amish shouldn't be loyal Republicans or loyal Democrats. They should be loyal Amish. Same as every other religious group.

I'm not suggesting that the Amish or any other group should be political liberals or political conservatives or political anything. I'm suggesting that they and every other religious group, conservative, or liberal, should be less political.

[steve-in-kville]

I didn't vote. I would consider myself a combination of the first two, I imagine.

How have you come to the perspective you hold?
I'm an ex-transplant. I've seen all ends of conservative Anabaptism. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly.

Where might you differ from these three perspectives?
To the vast majority of the folks here on MN, I would hold some very conservative views on some things (both theologically & applications) yet have an open mind towards others. To that end, I have a lot of respect for the conservative circles as they were quite influential in the "early days."

What do you wish those in the other perspectives would better understand about your point of view?
I'm gonna stick my neck out here... and I would be open to discuss this elsewhere on the forum, but I wish people would understand that the cape dress, black hat, headcovering and such like is not the "do all, end all" of salvation. We, as a whole, are way too quick to pass judgement on outward appearances and man-made standards. Sometimes we do more harm than good as far as personal testimonies are concerned.

I am not against church authority. I am against corrupt authority.

I am not against church standards. I am against double standards.

There is a difference.

[Bootstrap]

I didn't vote. I would consider myself a combination of the first two, I imagine.

I like the way you answered that. I think I'm a combination of all 3. I rewrote parts of this and deleted parts that don't define me in each section - here's how I see myself.

1) High view of biblical authority; Traditional regarding marriage, lifestyle, divorce, sexuality, and gender roles within home & church; Personally non-resistant, but supportive of ... society's need for a strong police/military; Upholds individual responsibility & autonomy; Strongly against abortion. Believes charity should from the individual and church should be very generous.

2) Biblicist who prioritize radical obedience to Christ & His apostles - including non-resistance, non-accumulation, sexual & marital purity, exceptional love and forgiveness, servanthood, and empathy for the poor, marginalized, & displaced; Worldview framed by “two-kingdom theology” - working toward both the present and future reign of Christ; ... deliberately independent from progressive and conservative ideologies, seeing them ultimately in conflict with Christ’s Kingdom; Rejecting both secular globalism and nationalism; Valuing the sanctity of all life - against all forms killing including war, euthanasia, abortion, & capital punishment.

3) Reads Scripture in context, with the "big picture" story in view; Strong faith-driven motivation toward peace and social justice, emphasizing Christ's heart for the marginalized; Prioritizes "redemptive love that leads to holiness" in relation to sexuality, divorce, and other human complexities; Want to see the church helping single mothers and providing real compassion and faith-based alternatives to abortion; Supportive of gun control; Would like less military spending replaced by more programs to help those less advantaged; Sympathetic to civil rights initiatives in the face of systemic racism and inequities; Believes in living simply and that climate change is a global threat.

I have never been in any church where everyone agrees with me on all these things, FWIW, so I also believe it's important to be able to be part of a community where people hold different views and have different practices. After all, that's what the New Testament church looked like. But I do need a church community that is close enough to my views that we are pulling in the same direction.

[Josh]

2/3 of us say we identify with this:

2) "Third-Way" Anabaptist – Biblicist who prioritize radical obedience to Christ & His apostles - including non-resistance, non-accumulation, sexual & marital purity, exceptional love and forgiveness, servanthood, and empathy for the poor, marginalized, & displaced; Worldview framed by “two-kingdom theology” - working toward both the present and future reign of Christ; Aloof from politics & voting, and deliberately independent from progressive and conservative ideologies, seeing them ultimately in conflict with Christ’s Kingdom; Rejecting both secular globalism and nationalism; Valuing the sanctity of all life - against all forms killing including war, euthanasia, abortion, & capital punishment.

But even in this thread, we are not talking about how to put that into focus. And for the most part, people aren't saying what they themselves need to do to focus on being like this, they are saying what other people need to do. People aren't talking about what we can agree on, despite our political preferences, and how we can pull together to build a visible Christianity that looks like Jesus and speaks like Jesus, drawing the kinds of people Jesus drew, offending the people Jesus offended.

And that, I think, is the problem in a nutshell.

Jesus' disciples included a zealot and a tax collector. Somehow, they figured out how to get along, even though they were polar opposites politically.

Well, those two quit being a zealot and a tax collector.

The “third way” position (which I voted for) has a few things I’m not aligned with that are left wing political positions (like opposing capital punishment). This is what leftists typically do: they act like the only way to be a good Christian is to adopt leftist politics.

I categorically reject this.

[Dan Z]

(if I were writing #2 I'd include something about the body of Christ as a community)

This is a good point - I amended #2 to include: "living out the Kingdom in the context of a faith community" (I also included some similar but differently nuanced statements about church in #1 & #3)

[Dan Z]

I marked "third way Anabaptist," with the caveat that although war and capital punishment may sometimes be conducted wrongly, they fall in with the authority of "the sword" that God has given to civil authorities. I recognize that authority at the same time as I stand apart from it as a Kingdom Christian.

This makes sense mercysfree - Perhaps being "against" is too strong a word (although not by much for me). Maybe we could say, like the early Anabaptists, that we object to violence of all kinds, but we recognize that, in a fallen and violent world, the sword is sometimes ordained of God "outside the perfection of Christ."

Personally, I would not be comfortable supporting, much less being for war or capital punishment, or anything else that is contrary to the way of Christ - but I can acknowledge, with sadness, that there is a Scriptural allowance (Rom 13) for its necessary existence within society outside of the Kingdom of God.

In response, I nuanced #2 to indicate being against killing in general & "nonsupportive" of war, capital punishment, etc. to better reflect the position. By the way, I believe the more progressive-minded Anabaptists among us would be more inclined to be categorically against war and capital punishment.