Concerning Divorce

[mennonitemom1]

I know this is a tired old subject that has had plenty of discussion here already. However, I think as our culture becomes more and more demented, we need to continue to understand our beliefs about it.

I bring this up specifically, because I had a very lively discussion with a visitor at our church who feels that strict permanence of marriage is the only option, with no exception clause. Since I have not been able to answer this question myself, I asked him how he defines marriage, and whether a common law marriage would count. He felt common law would not, since there is no "marriage covenant". I asked if a previous state licensed gay marriage should prevent a converted man from marrying a women in the church, and this generated a lot of confusion. He ultimately came to the conclusion that it would, which I believe is consistent, but kind of demonstrates the absurdity of allowing the state / culture to define what marriage is.

I have a number of questions, and I would like to primarily hear from the folks here who are in churches that abide by, and/or personally abide by strict permanence of marriage. I am not interested in discussing conventional evangelical thinking about "grace". I'm very familiar with the view, and the results that it achieves.

Question #1
At what point (if not now) do the plain churches need to re-examine (and question) who they allow to define marriage? Thinking about the what-ifs. What if the state stops endorsing heterosexual marriage at all, or places it in a lower class than things like gay marriage?

#2
If marriage is a covenant before God, how can a gay marriage which is defiance of God's law, or a marriage between two non-believers be considered a marriage at all?

#3
If the culture basically stops having heterosexual marriages, does that mean cohabitation / children in a heterosexual marriage would take over and be deemed a "previous marriage" in our tradition?

#4
How can our traditional view of permanence of marriage adapt in a biblical way to an ever degenerating culture without allowing divorce to creep in?

I really hope I get some discussion on this, because it's something I'm having a hard time with, and it doesn't seem to be something anyone in my circles has any interest in thinking about, which is typical of the conservative people in my area, they like to pretend that cultural problems don't exist until it's too late to do much about them.

I think in biblical terms if a man “takes” a woman that constitutes marriage… Paul said do not couple yourself to a harlot because what God hath together, let no man separate (or something very close to that)… 1 cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

So a woman is married to whoever takes her virginity? What about rape?

I have no clue how that works…
I would assume that God would not join them in that case…

[JimFoxvog]

Not what I talking about, but 42% is is 42% too high.

You are right that 42% is 42% too high!

I would be interested in how your statistics were calculated. Here's one source from this year that calculates it as 44.6%. https://www.thehivelaw.com/blog/divorce ... n-america/ Too high, but a 16% rise from 1950, so not a recent extraordinary epidemic of failed marriages as some try to portray.

[Ken]

From the article that you linked to, this is what the divorce rate in the US has looked like over the past 70 years



Also from the same article (I assume "Christian" means protestant),

[temporal1]

I have a number of questions, and I would like to primarily hear from the folks here who are in churches that abide by, and/or personally abide by strict permanence of marriage.

I am not interested in discussing conventional evangelical thinking about "grace". I'm very familiar with the view, and the results that it achieves.

OK, I will stay out of the conversation as I am one trusting on the grace of God to save me from all of my failings, including marriages.

Unless your belief system involves condoning a system where 60% of marriages end in divorce, I wasn't talking about you.

i have a heart for your OP, i believe you are seeking the spirit, not the letter, of the law. don’t be distracted, the world needs to be overtaken by this very thing!

Jesus Christ did not use statistics or charts+graphs. i understood your reference to “60%” to be a comment on the general state of things, would it really make much difference if it were 20%? It’s common knowledge that stats can be created to reflect any desired point. It’s not that they are useless, they are eminently limited. They have to be.

On this topic, comparing divorce rates from prior times (not long ago) when cohabitation, “baby daddies,” etc., were low or unheard of, what can divorce rates possibly mean, when so many are not bothered to marry?? Throw out stats. Meaningless. Return to Jesus and scriptures. As i believe you are attempting.

It’s dismaying when folks attempt to seek Truth and Wisdom, only to be met with “social undermining.” over+over.

There are some worthwhile, credible, able members who may yet contribute to your important OP.
Unfortunately, “noise” is not inviting or conducive to responsible dialogue. (i am guilty of noise!)

These are important, valid questions in a world that has successfully normalized divorce, normalized fornication, sodomy, and all sorts of grave sin. Just enlightening people that there is a POSSIBILITY of wrong is now fairly revolutionary/radical/extreme.

Not sure if this thread can be saved. But tomorrow’s a new day.

[ohio jones]

I think in cases that are unclear, asking couples to remarry under the church's authority is very consistent, and could be very simple. I think it would also be simple for the anabaptists to determine whether they respect the marriages of other churches / denominations based on their doctrine of divorce.

I've been ruminating on this, assuming it is in the context of a couple who wants to join a conservative Anabaptist church. If they have been married in another church or denomination, and it's the first marriage for each of them with no complicating factors, why would the doctrine of the other church body matter? The simple approach would be to explain our teaching on the permanence of marriage and ask them to commit to that. Not to disrespect their relationship because of who performed the ceremony and ask them to "remarry."

[nett]

I think in cases that are unclear, asking couples to remarry under the church's authority is very consistent, and could be very simple. I think it would also be simple for the anabaptists to determine whether they respect the marriages of other churches / denominations based on their doctrine of divorce.

I've been ruminating on this, assuming it is in the context of a couple who wants to join a conservative Anabaptist church. If they have been married in another church or denomination, and it's the first marriage for each of them with no complicating factors, why would the doctrine of the other church body matter? The simple approach would be to explain our teaching on the permanence of marriage and ask them to commit to that. Not to disrespect their relationship because of who performed the ceremony and ask them to "remarry."

I think that would be fine. And from that point, if they were accepted as member, other churches that believe in permanence of marriage could recognize their commitment.

I have a hard time with holding people to what they did before they were converted, before they even understood the marriage covenant. I don't fully understand it.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck. And I think that works for marriage too. But a state license for marriage no longer has any relation to biblical marriage, there is no covenant before God, there is no permanence, and there is no community.

[JimFoxvog]

Trying to help keep this important thread on track.

Question #1
At what point (if not now) do the plain churches need to re-examine (and question) who they allow to define marriage? Thinking about the what-ifs. What if the state stops endorsing heterosexual marriage at all, or places it in a lower class than things like gay marriage?

#2
If marriage is a covenant before God, how can a gay marriage which is defiance of God's law, or a marriage between two non-believers be considered a marriage at all?

#3
If the culture basically stops having heterosexual marriages, does that mean cohabitation / children in a heterosexual marriage would take over and be deemed a "previous marriage" in our tradition?

#4
How can our traditional view of permanence of marriage adapt in a biblical way to an ever degenerating culture without allowing divorce to creep in?

I really hope I get some discussion on this, because it's something I'm having a hard time with, and it doesn't seem to be something anyone in my circles has any interest in thinking about, which is typical of the conservative people in my area, they like to pretend that cultural problems don't exist until it's too late to do much about them.

#1 I have little contact with "Plain" churches, so won't offer an opinion.

#2 It's not a marriage under the traditional meaning of the term or according to scripture. I try to always use quotes (same-sex "marriage") if I use the term at all.

#3 I think a marriage is a lifetime commitment. If someone has not made that commitment I wouldn't treat it as a marriage; just one of many sins from which one should repent.

#4 I don't think there is any adaptation needed. Jesus taught marriage is permanent, so that is what we should teach and practice. Worldly culture has always been degenerate.