Trudy Metzger/Steve Stutzman

[Grace]

Leroy wants everyone to shut up. He needs everyone to have your opinion- that his “sensational info” should be private and not publicly available/discussed.

I don’t believe that you intend to defend Leroy; however, you are playing into his hand by continuing to argue that survivors and the general public should stop “gossiping”.

I get it, anyone who doesn't agree with Trudy's tactics, (Notice I said "tactics" and not her work in exposing abuse) is playing into the hands of whoever and must have passive aggression used against them

[Grace]

What “other reasons” might Leroy have to seek expungement?

Is it gossip when there is a predator (repentant or not) who is trying to “clear” his name when, by all appearances, he still isn’t a safe person for young girls/women?

There are many reasons for a person seeking expungement. Why not Google it and find out those reasons. Are you clairvoyant that you know exactly why he is wanting to have his record expunged? Again, I will reiterate, I am not defending Leroy Miller. However, neither Will I claim to know what his motives are in seeking expungement.

He certainly could take an opportunity to make a public statement why he’s seeking it.

To many of us, it looks like a lack of accountability.

The timing is particularly odd.

That I would agree with. A public statement would help.

[anndet92]

Leroy wants everyone to shut up. He needs everyone to have your opinion- that his “sensational info” should be private and not publicly available/discussed.

I don’t believe that you intend to defend Leroy; however, you are playing into his hand by continuing to argue that survivors and the general public should stop “gossiping”.

I get it, anyone who doesn't agree with Trudy's tactics, (Notice I said "tactics" and not her work in exposing abuse) is playing into the hands of whoever and must have passive aggression used against them

So how would you do it? If you had hundreds of survivors tell you about their experiences, and some of them had stories of abuse that were perpetrated by powerful well known leaders- how would you proceed?

What would you change about the “tactics”? Would you notify the public and how would you do that?

Honest questions here, Grace. I want to understand where you’re coming from. Help me understand what you would do differently.

[Grace]

It seems to me like it’s pretty easy for you to jump to conclusions on what Trudy’s motives are. (Again, I’m speaking for myself here…)

After watching you for years, it is starting to feel to me like you are quick to assign motives to Trudy and survivors while you dish a ton of “grace” to people like Stutzman and Miller.

You have also told me that I am manipulative on this forum. I apologized - it was not my intent at all, but intent does not erase consequences and broken trust.

Im curious - do those same rules apply to you too?

I’m trying hard to give you grace, Grace.

Lots of assumptions in that post. And I am not asking for your grace or trust. You will draw your own conclusions just as I will draw mine. And don't speak for me as to how I view Stutzman or Miller. My view of them isn't a good view.

And I have NOT assigned any motives to survivors of abuse. Why would that be added to the mix, when I didn't even mention them?

Apologies are only sincere if the act being apologized for discontinues.

[Grace]

So... how exactly is what Trudy is doing different from your post here?
Whatever all was going on on Facebook - you just spread it all further by posting it here. If it's disgusting for it to be on Facebook, why publicize it here?
You say Leroy Miller and his expungement is none of Trudy's business, implying that she shouldn't be posting about it. Is Trudy and what she posts any of your business?

You imply that Trudy should have given Leroy a chance to explain before posting about his expungement request. Did you check with Trudy and give her a chance to explain before posting this critical comment about her?

Since the folks on Mennonet have nothing to do with Trudy's Facebook situation, doesn't your post fall within your own definition of gossip? Or is it only gossip when Trudy does it but not when Grace does it?

With all due respect I was not the one who brought the Miller matter here to Mennonet, about Miller's despicable actions in asking for money when a young man sinned. Nor did I post the expungement request documents. As I said in another post, I get it, anyone who might not agree with Trudy's tactics must be silenced by whatever method.

[JohnH]

With all due respect I was not the one who brought up here on Mennonet, about Miller's despicable actions in asking for money when a young man sinned. Nor did I post the expungement request documents. As I said in another post, I get it, anyone who might not agree with Trudy's tactics must be silenced by whatever method.

I posted public court proceedings about a notable, public Anabaptist pastor.

Do you think that’s wrong?

[Grace]

With all due respect I was not the one who brought up here on Mennonet, about Miller's despicable actions in asking for money when a young man sinned. Nor did I post the expungement request documents. As I said in another post, I get it, anyone who might not agree with Trudy's tactics must be silenced by whatever method.

I posted public court proceedings about a notable, public Anabaptist pastor.

Do you think that’s wrong?

I didn't say it was wrong. I was responding to Ken's accusations what was on Facebook, that I spread it all further by posting it here on Mennonet. I did mention the drama in a prior post between various people, but I did not bring up all the money for sins issue and the expungement stuff. I was watching all drama concerning the Leroy Miller situation on FB but specifically chose not to post anything on this thread about the matter. I knew the type of response some people would have towards me if I did. And now that I did post comments, the response was just as I expected.

[JohnH]

1. I posted Leroy Miller’s court filings.

2. You complained about Trudy Metzger being a gossip by talking about Leroy Miller’s court filings in Facebook.

It seems if you have a quarrel, it should be with me. Trudy isn’t even here to defend herself, and hasn’t posted anything to MennoNet.

I would like to discuss if a Christian should seek expungement of a criminal record for sexual based offences, which are considered especially heinous.

[temporal1]

^^several posts added since i wrote this.
this is not in response to those additions.

P.27:

And the saga continues with back and forth between (so called Christian) people on Facebook. In the past two weeks there have been Facebook squabbles between Trudy and various other people, including, Steve Stutzman, James Peight, and someone called El Ly. I do not know these people, but one says one thing and another says something else. Each one has their followers, and the followers post comments against the others. The back and forth is unreal and disgusting. And none of it is a good testimony.

As for Leroy Miller seeking expungement. I believe his Character is far from stellar, but seeking expungement is legal and something that a person might have many reasons to do. Trudy posted the legal documents concerning his expungement request on Facebook. And posting those documents is a prime example of her tactics. Using carefully chosen words, making a big deal about something that really is none of her business but not making any accusations. She puts out the bait, her followers swallow the bait and fill in the blanks for her, making the accusations, accusing him of attempting to cover up his past crimes and various other accusations. I am not defending Leroy Miller, but before posting his expungement request documents, shouldn't he be given the chance to explain why he is seeking expungement, instead of having her followers make all kinds of assumptions.

Posting private information such as an expungement request on social media to a broad audience who have nothing to do with the situation, seems like gossip to me. The definition of gossip is a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others.

So... how exactly is what Trudy is doing different from your post here?
Whatever all was going on on Facebook - you just spread it all further by posting it here. If it's disgusting for it to be on Facebook, why publicize it here?
You say Leroy Miller and his expungement is none of Trudy's business, implying that she shouldn't be posting about it. Is Trudy and what she posts any of your business?

You imply that Trudy should have given Leroy a chance to explain before posting about his expungement request. Did you check with Trudy and give her a chance to explain before posting this critical comment about her?

Since the folks on Mennonet have nothing to do with Trudy's Facebook situation, doesn't your post fall within your own definition of gossip? Or is it only gossip when Trudy does it but not when Grace does it?

Sadly, i believe it was Ernie who brought FB here, P.5, July 5, which put Grace in the unenviable position of having to make a choice whether to attempt to explain or defend herself. Extra-hard for an authentic believer, as i understand Grace to be.

My sense is, Grace is doing her level best to respond with moderation that would please Jesus.
Pray for the Holy Spirit to protect, inform, guide.

In my view, Grace is quite self-aware, she explains herself well, with humility. At all times.
i agree with her that she has been careful to respect Trudy and Trudy’s work, with certain exceptions. At all times.

It requires reading for all content, without flaring up over “hot spots” which can cause blind spots. (Not easy when emotions are high.) i learned that lesson in the past, first person. emotions can significantly alter understanding.

i’m sorry for these horrendous incidents of abuse. everywhere they occur.
Grace is not guilty.

The guilty LOVE distractions away from themselves, an age-old tool of many tools they use and enjoy -
to 1) be free of accountability, and 2) to continue in sn.

SIN is the culprit. The age old culprit.

[JohnH]

t1,

With respect, Grace has been complaining since the start that we shouldn’t be talking about the Leroy Miller situation. It’s private, this is gossip, it’s a bad witness to talk about it, etc. etc.

I disagree. Once you pull your pants down in public, some things aren’t private anymore.