By Thy Words

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
temporal1

Re: By Thy Words

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:46 pm
Signtist wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:22 pm Now I feel like you're being purposefully obtuse. Would you rather curse them?
I simply don’t think someone walking away from God and into the world is something we need to bless.
no, but praying for them to be blessed, protected, and guided by the Holy Spirit is a good choice in all circumstances, for all people, even those not Christian.

we cannot know in full.
i often wonder about the words in John about Jesus’ UNKNOWN work on earth:

https://biblehub.com/john/21-25.htm
24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down. And we know that his testimony is true.

25 There are many more things that Jesus did.
If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.
:shock: 8-) :D
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ABC 123

Re: By Thy Words

Post by ABC 123 »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:46 pm
Signtist wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:22 pm Now I feel like you're being purposefully obtuse. Would you rather curse them?
I simply don’t think someone walking away from God and into the world is something we need to bless.
See, that is where you different with almost every single other person on this board. The poster did not say walk away from God. He said walk away from *your* church. There is a difference and you keep making it about walking away from God.
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justme

Re: By Thy Words

Post by justme »

ABC 123 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:27 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:46 pm
Signtist wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:22 pm Now I feel like you're being purposefully obtuse. Would you rather curse them?
I simply don’t think someone walking away from God and into the world is something we need to bless.
See, that is where you different with almost every single other person on this board. The poster did not say walk away from God. He said walk away from *your* church. There is a difference and you keep making it about walking away from God.
that's because walking away from the Holdermans IS walking away from God. or so they feel.
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ABC 123

Re: By Thy Words

Post by ABC 123 »

justme wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:49 pm
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:27 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:46 pm

I simply don’t think someone walking away from God and into the world is something we need to bless.
See, that is where you different with almost every single other person on this board. The poster did not say walk away from God. He said walk away from *your* church. There is a difference and you keep making it about walking away from God.
that's because walking away from the Holdermans IS walking away from God. or so they feel.
I know.
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Josh

Re: By Thy Words

Post by Josh »

ABC 123 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:27 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:46 pm
Signtist wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:22 pm Now I feel like you're being purposefully obtuse. Would you rather curse them?
I simply don’t think someone walking away from God and into the world is something we need to bless.
See, that is where you different with almost every single other person on this board. The poster did not say walk away from God. He said walk away from *your* church. There is a difference and you keep making it about walking away from God.
Let's look at the context of the what I said:
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:46 pm
Signtist wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:22 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:14 pm

How far out do you extend this? Do you give them a “blessing” when they decide not to be Christian at all?
Now I feel like you're being purposefully obtuse. Would you rather curse them?
I simply don’t think someone walking away from God and into the world is something we need to bless.
What I said has nothing to do with my particular kind of church. I don't think we should "bless" people who are walking away from God and into the world, and the purpose of any church is to help its members not fall into that.
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Signtist

Re: By Thy Words

Post by Signtist »

Still being obtuse.
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Soloist

Re: By Thy Words

Post by Soloist »

ragpicker wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:24 am
I was miserable under the burden of sin. I called the preacher Dale Martin at 2 am one morning. He graciously invited me over and I confessed everything (or so I thought). As I prepared to leave, he gently reminded me that this would result in excommunication. I replied that I was aware of that but I didn't care. I just wanted to be right with God. (I mention Dale's name because he was kind and I will forever be grateful for his kindness that night.)

I was excommunicated the following Sunday morning. On Tuesday I remembered the casino visit. It came as a jolt. I wrestled, because I knew how it would be interpreted (that's a red flag right there, y'all), but I decided I was going all the way, regardless if people believed me or not.

So I confessed this thing too. The next day, after prayer meeting I was summoned to the basement to the upper grade school room for a meeting with the ministry. There, I was informed of their disappointment. They told me they believed my sincerity at first, but that one does not simply forget such a major sin. They were glad I went through with confessing, but because of my lack of sincerity, they were placing me under the ban. That meant zero social interaction, zero meals with members except with the immediate family I lived with, etc. This was all clearly spelled out to me, and the words "ban" and "shunning" were used.

They were wrong to do this to you. While perhaps an argument for holding you in proving longer could be made, this is totally not Biblical and is flat out abuse.
Yes. It was devastating to me, and was a significant driver of the bitterness that for years consumed my heart. Some of the denizens of the old MD witnessed that bitterness and the repentance of it.

But I got the ultimate revenge. I forgave them and I love them. I literally go out of my way to connect with some of the people involved. I have no pain. I am grateful for the journey.
Amen! I haven't got the feeling of bitterness reading your posts, perhaps too much knowledge of evil going on... but not bitterness. As for the evil comment I say that to the shame of those, not you.
I have testimony on tape of chilling corruption by a now deceased top dog bishop and R&S board member. I have visited for hours with this man. I have family who were in top leadership at R&S. I have experienced things and witnessed things that should never be named in the church of Christ. When you are an unbeliever and break into the preacher's house when he is out of town, and access the preacher's meeting notes and discover gross and clear corruption, by the same people who were constantly haranguing you to get your life right with God, it messes with you big time.

When you know the man who just encouraged you to get right with God is fooling around with his daughters, it messes with you.

When you access another famous preacher's files and discover a file filled with a weird obsession about sexual matters, and sexualized advertising, and it's the same guy, never mind, I don't wanna give a hint who it was, it messes with you.

When you surreptitiously record a meeting with the preachers and their sidekick, then in a subsequent meeting bring up points and are told to your face that this never happened, and this is verified by everyone in the room, then you whip out your microcassette recorder and play back proof they are lying, and the immediate response is to jump your case for recording them and are told "it says you don't trust us", that messes with you.

I could go on about gross corruption and sin for hours and hours. And that's only the things I have directly witnessed and experienced.
I can say while my experience at my church has been rough and there are likely things that could be labeled as spiritual abuse, none of this has ever happened in my experience. This is horrible and I don't doubt the truth of what you are saying.
Can we just all admit our sins and repent instead? Is that asking too much?
I think that many sincere people have been held at arms length too long post confession, and too many have been welcomed back for insincere confessions... I think that some do it for power, and others do it by honest mistake.
Again, for emphasis... the systems are evil. The people, some are evil, most by far are sincere servants of the Lord.
I'm not sure I agree that the system itself is evil but I'm not sure I can properly grasp what you are calling the system has I have never experienced your side. I might send you my story privately later. I think that humans are capable of corrupting any system a man makes and attempts to use. A well meaning system can do much damage by a evil man.

Ultimately, I believe you and while perhaps I believe in a system you don't, it would seem you have plenty of reasons. I'm sorry for the evil you have personally had done against you.
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Soloist

Re: By Thy Words

Post by Soloist »

Signtist wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:07 am Dad was excommunicated for letting Mose Stoltzfus sleep at our house. I'm not even certain he knew the guy was there til the next morning.

Given some of the comments on here I would wonder if some might think that was legit :laugh That being said... I'm sorry... that seems a gross abuse of authority.
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Signtist

Re: By Thy Words

Post by Signtist »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:53 pm
What I said has nothing to do with my particular kind of church.
No, but what I said did. In its basic form, what you said was a manipulation of the discussion. I never mentioned walking away from God, you did. I specifically mentioned walking away from YOUR church, and you took it from there and twisted it.

You have a history of twisting the discussion and then get aggrivated when people say "that's not what we were saying". It's frustrating.
Last edited by Signtist on Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Signtist

Re: By Thy Words

Post by Signtist »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:26 pm
Signtist wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:07 am Dad was excommunicated for letting Mose Stoltzfus sleep at our house. I'm not even certain he knew the guy was there til the next morning.

Given some of the comments on here I would wonder if some might think that was legit :laugh That being said... I'm sorry... that seems a gross abuse of authority.
Mose was flawed. Everyone is. But I'm pretty sure dad would have given him a bed and meal if he was an outright blatant sinner. As he should have.
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