Why do Swiss Anabaptists practice ethnic separatism from other Anabaptists?

[Soloist]

There were also a lot of German Baptist’s, which I don’t know their ethnic roots.

Probably German, but that's just a wild guess.

Wife: thanks man. I owe you one.

I do seriously need to figure out where they fit on anabaptist history, or if they have their own story

I’ve got a bit of German and Swiss (it might actually be Swedish, don’t tell) in me, but I don’t think any Russian, except when I’m running late for church.

[Southerner]

I just think you are making sweeping generalizations.

It is like Menno click bait.

[JohnH]

It becomes painfully obvious it's really just about family connections and an ethnic superiority complex and precious little to do with Christianity.

I'll be the first to admit that many Swiss/Germans have an ethnic problem and many get concerned about things that have precious little to do with Christianity. But so do many other denominations, including Holdemans.

Holdemans long ago decided not to have an dominant ethnic majority. So there are some that are majority Swiss, some majority Molosch, some majority Polsch (two different varieties of Russian Mennonite), and now some don't have a clear dominant ethnic group. I think this is a good thing.

A big shift in Holdeman thinking was when it became accepted to have mixed Molosch-Polsch congregations, leadership in a congregation, and marriages. I think that's good too. I don't think the Bible really teaches ethnic separatism. I think it's okay if it happens naturally, but questions should be raised if it is the norm everywhere.

(I'm impressed with RZehr's list, although it should be pointed out those are all Molosch names.)

[Ernie]

So there are some that are majority Swiss, some majority Molosch, some majority Polsch (two different varieties of Russian Mennonite), and now some don't have a clear dominant ethnic group.

Molosch refers to Mennonites from Prussia, correct?
And Polsch from Poland?

If I understand correctly, both groups had the same original ethnicity.

[JohnH]

So there are some that are majority Swiss, some majority Molosch, some majority Polsch (two different varieties of Russian Mennonite), and now some don't have a clear dominant ethnic group.

Molosch refers to Mennonites from Prussia, correct?
And Polsch from Poland?

If I understand correctly, both groups had the same original ethnicity.

Polsch is the ethnic group from Friesland, Netherlands and Molosch in the ethnic group from Flanders, Belgium (which used to be in the Netherlands). The present day names were adopted much later. A better term would be Frisian and Flemish.

It has been previously discussed on MN that some of the early church splits went down a Frisian vs Flemish divide: Frisians feeling convicted not to have fancy clothes, and Flemish not to have fancy houses.

To this day, Canadian Holdemans who are primarily Frisian tend to have fancier clothes than Kansas Holdemans who tend to be Flemish. The inverse is also true regarding house sizes and general fanciness of houses.

My wife’s parents are mixed Flemish & Frisian but prior generations generally didn’t mix like that. My own congregation is primarily Frisian, Swiss Brethren, and then local mostly Appalachian people, which can be uncomfortably “conservative” for someone from a Flemish background.

Flemish people seem to be more likely to build large business and even entire cities, as is seen in South America and Mexico. Whereas the settlements in Kansas stayed small.

[Ernie]

So there are some that are majority Swiss, some majority Molosch, some majority Polsch (two different varieties of Russian Mennonite), and now some don't have a clear dominant ethnic group.

Molosch refers to Mennonites from Prussia, correct?
And Polsch from Poland?

If I understand correctly, both groups had the same original ethnicity.

Polsch is the ethnic group from Friesland, Netherlands and Molosch in the ethnic group from Flanders, Belgium (which used to be in the Netherlands). The present day names were adopted much later. A better term would be Frisian and Flemish.

It has been previously discussed on MN that some of the early church splits went down a Frisian vs Flemish divide: Frisians feeling convicted not to have fancy clothes, and Flemish not to have fancy houses.

To this day, Canadian Holdemans who are primarily Frisian tend to have fancier clothes than Kansas Holdemans who tend to be Flemish. The inverse is also true regarding house sizes and general fanciness of houses.

My wife’s parents are mixed Flemish & Frisian but prior generations generally didn’t mix like that. My own congregation is primarily Frisian, Swiss Brethren, and then local mostly Appalachian people, which can be uncomfortably “conservative” for someone from a Flemish background.

Flemish people seem to be more likely to build large business and even entire cities, as is seen in South America and Mexico. Whereas the settlements in Kansas stayed small.

Interesting.

[ohio jones]

Interesting.

But somewhat off topic.

However, as a Swiss Anabaptist, relocating the sidebar conversation to BT would probably get me accused of separatism.

[Swiss Brah]

FWIW the founder of the Apostolic Christian Church was a Swiss German dude. There are a plethora of sects within that domination, many of which don‘t commune with one another let alone any other church out there, because that would be deemed spiritual fornication. Baffling how many Christian sects such a small country spawned, and I haven‘t even mentioned Zwingli and Calvin.

[Neto]

We have people with Russian Mennonite surnames in our Western churches. I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that we exclude them. The more conservative ones, such as ourselves, do generally seem to be from outside the USA and the ones inside the USA are largely either liberal or not in the same geographical area of the Swiss/Germans.

As a general rule, Swiss Brethren-background plain Anabaptists do not include churches that have a different dominant ethnic group. (Sometimes they will include their own missions they established, but that is all.) There is usually some excuse about some kind of doctrinal problem, or that a group is inherently sinful, etc. as the reason for the exclusion.

Of course a minority of people from other backgrounds are tolerated in Swiss churches, although it is quite rare to see them ordained to ministry.

Here’s a list of Russian/Dutch people that we have:
Dyck
Brandt
Dick
Dueck
Friesen
Janzen
Reimer
Krahn
Martens
Wadel
Theissen
Wiebe
Horning
Christner
Fehr
Penner

Interesting enough, there are a few of our congregations that have the bulk of these names. Some of these are ordained.

Around 7 or so of these names appear in my recent ancestry. (I have very close Wedel ancestry, but no one ever spelled it Wadel. Same name? Who knows. The only Wadel I have ever heard of was not 'Russian Mennonite'.) There are some others which while I have heard them before, are not names of people I have actually met personally. A few are names that I have never heard before, as having any relationship at all with Plautdietsch identity. (Incidentally, I only know of two family names that are in both Swiss Brethren and Plautdietsch background - going back far enough that any cross-overs had to have been more than 5 or so generations back: Barkman and Funk. Neither of these are among my direct ancestors, but I have close relatives with both of these surnames.)

In my family background, Flemish and Frisian mix was fairly common already multiple generations back. The more recent mix in my family is between people with history in the Cortitza vs the Molotschna colonies - my parents are the start of that mix. There were also some Plautdietsch dialect differences involved there as well, perhaps part of the reason that I did not learn to speak it myself. There is one of my ancestors, my 4th Great grandfather, whose ancestry is completely unknown. He was found as an abandoned infant in the Cortitza colony, and raised as their own son by a Mennonite couple. He was not, however, given their surname, but instead, a made up one, after the name of the bush under which he was found. That name is Boese. All Mennonite Boese families descend from that one man. (A similar case in my wife's Amish background family is that all Amish Kline families come from a man who was taken in from the outside by an Amish family as a child. His birth father's name had been Cly.)

As a Plautietsch person now living in the midst of Swiss Brethren people, I would not say that there is any special 'distance' in the way I'm regarded or treated. There is the understandable difference of cultural attitudes and foods, etc., and some reactions that are perhaps based on the rarity of anyone coming in from outside the Amish-Swiss Mennonite background, and then actually staying long term. And, all of my grandchildren 'wear Amish names', so the Buller name will very possibly not be carried on at all in my case. (The only people I've met around here that have any Bullers in their ancestry are people of Holdeman descent.)

Something I feel fairly certain that I do see in Amish and Swiss Mennonite culture is a tendency to regard one's grandchildren who carry your own surname a bit differently than those who are the children of one's own daughters. (That is, the former are 'favored' in some ways. This is not surprising in paternalistic cultures, but as an 'out-law' can feel a bit 'offensive' - finding one's own children occasionally subtly treated as 'second-class grandchildren'. But I am not 'offended'. I have tried to think of a softer term, but cannot think of how else I should say it.)

[Soloist]

Something I feel fairly certain that I do see in Amish and Swiss Mennonite culture is a tendency to regard one's grandchildren who carry your own surname a bit differently than those who are the children of one's own daughters. (That is, the former are 'favored' in some ways. This is not surprising in paternalistic cultures, but as an 'out-law' can feel a bit 'offensive' - finding one's own children occasionally subtly treated as 'second-class grandchildren'. But I am not 'offended'. I have tried to think of a softer term, but cannot think of how else I should say it.)

Wife: that would be kind of horrifying if I saw it, but I wonder if at least occasionally, it might also have to do with the girl moving to the son’s community. I can imagine that there are some people that are really that petty, but I do wonder if it might actually be accidental at times because the grandparents see those grandchildren all the time. My children are much closer to daddy’s parents than mine because we live nearby (although my parents spoil them rotten when they get the chance ). I think when I hear all about my friends’ grandchildren, they don’t seem to have a preference and go on and on about their daughters’ children, but maybe it is more common in certain areas.