Oasis Chorale dancing

[Ernie]

I think this is a quality post that illustrates some of the questions I have about the troubled relationship Anabaptists have with the arts, in this case singing.

Amongst the plain circles I'm in where instruments and recordings are avoided, there are lots of songwriters - you can usually find at least one in any congregation.

In the non-plain circles I've been in, finding songwriters (at the level where someone other than their family or their own congregation has ever sung a song they wrote) was quite rare.

My view is that elitism and professionalism in the arts leads to a typical congregation not having a single person who writes songs, because none of them reach the elite, professional levels that end up feeling necessary to be "worthy" of writing songs.

Yes, Jonas Sauder has observed that the choral singing movement among Plain Anabaptists is supposed to improve congregational singing and hymnody among us. Yet the tens of thousands of people who sing hymns as they go about their work and often get spontaneous groups together to sing are among the more traditional groups who don't have choral exposure, whilst the choral folks tend to not do much spontaneous singing, preferring to listen to music or sing in specialized groups.

[Ernie]

Regardless, is there actually a principled objection to having more performing artists within an Anabaptist community? To me that's the most important question. If the answer is no, then we can move on to figuring out how to make it work.

For Plain Anabaptists, the principled objection is that performance art generally fosters pride and a love for the world.

Many Non-Plain Anabaptists believe the opposite is true and they have been "figuring out how to make it work in their communities" since about 1850.

The argument against "pride and a love for the world" is the go-to for basically anything Plain Anabaptists don't like, though. What actually warrants performing arts being put in this category? If playing an instrument in public is a demonstration of pride, how come running a large business isn't seem the same way? Etc.

This is worthy of it's own thread. https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9109

[mike]

Conrad Fisher is an example of a sorta-conservative Anabaptist who seems to be making it in the music world, but it's through a whole mix of things that appear to include songwriting, recording and producing for other artists, YouTube ad revenue, having a few songs picked up by big name bands, hosting concerts in his own small town music hall, and giving concerts of his own. This is in the country/bluegrass/folk music world. It looks like a lot of work. Presumably someone could do something like this in other genres such as choral or classical.

I stopped by his "church" the other day and visited with him. Quite interesting business model. He is definitely not your average Anabaptist. I wouldn't put him in the Plain category at all. He did recently purchase about 100 Christian Hymnals (the last thing he thought he would ever do) for the song book racks in his church. He uses them for community hymn sings/guitar performances that he organizes.
He explained that the country singers that he hopes to attract to his venue are known for having big egos (e.g. "Yeah, we'll come sing for you all" and then once the concert is over, they will head directly for their bus rather than talk to the common folk). This is something that just goes with the territory. So he would need to accommodate some of these habits and lifestyles the best he could in order to get them to come.
Even if they agreed to come for $50K instead of 500K, he figures that ticket sales might only cover about half the bill. The rest of the revenue would need to come from other sources.

Sounds about right. Which reminds me of another thing a musician can do to make money. My brother in law records instrumental overdubs for some of the music that Conrad produces, and that actually makes a little money. So there's another thing a person can do for income as an instrumentalist.

[barnhart]

I think this is a quality post that illustrates some of the questions I have about the troubled relationship Anabaptists have with the arts, in this case singing. If the path we are on is healthy, why does it seem sterile?

Can you tell me more about the path you are referring to? When did it start? Who is on it? Is the path different from what it was earlier?

When I see music limited to church and then only several songs per week and then from only one book with most songs from the same time period and then mostly from the 20 or 30 popular songs in that book, it feels a little sterile. I think Neto's experience of not one person in the group producing a single song is common. One word I would use to describe that is performative, done for the ritual or act and not much else.

I'm sure this doesn't include many groups but I think it can be found.

[JohnH]

When I see music limited to church and then only several songs per week and then from only one book with most songs from the same time period and then mostly from the 20 or 30 popular songs in that book, it feels a little sterile. I think Neto's experience of not one person in the group producing a single song is common. One word I would use to describe that is performative, done for the ritual or act and not much else.

I'm sure this doesn't include many groups but I think it can be found.

Holdemans have long restricted instruments in the home (or church), recordings of instrumental music, and discouraged recording in general.

They also tend to have many, many songbooks (quite a few that are not even from Anabaptist sources, but always shaped note!) on their shelves, in the suitcase or knapsack a song leader will carry around, and in the libraries at church and school. Songwriting is prolific, to the point there are multiple, competing songwriting "clubs" (for lack of a better term).

This happens despite no formal, academic training, other than classes for children in school that teach music basics.

[ken_sylvania]

I think this is a quality post that illustrates some of the questions I have about the troubled relationship Anabaptists have with the arts, in this case singing. If the path we are on is healthy, why does it seem sterile?

Can you tell me more about the path you are referring to? When did it start? Who is on it? Is the path different from what it was earlier?

When I see music limited to church and then only several songs per week and then from only one book with most songs from the same time period and then mostly from the 20 or 30 popular songs in that book, it feels a little sterile. I think Neto's experience of not one person in the group producing a single song is common. One word I would use to describe that is performative, done for the ritual or act and not much else.

I'm sure this doesn't include many groups but I think it can be found.

If indeed this is rare, why would you describe it as "the troubled relationship Anabaptists have with ... singing"?
You say "when I see..." as if you've seen at least several groups where this is the case. Have you honestly seen conservative Anabaptists groups that meet the description you gave? I'm sure I never have.

[Soloist]

I also haven't seen a sterile singing. The best singing I experienced though was in the Portland street meetings

[Ernie]

Can you tell me more about the path you are referring to? When did it start? Who is on it? Is the path different from what it was earlier?

When I see music limited to church and then only several songs per week and then from only one book with most songs from the same time period and then mostly from the 20 or 30 popular songs in that book, it feels a little sterile. I think Neto's experience of not one person in the group producing a single song is common. One word I would use to describe that is performative, done for the ritual or act and not much else.

I'm sure this doesn't include many groups but I think it can be found.

If indeed this is rare, why would you describe it as "the troubled relationship Anabaptists have with ... singing"?
You say "when I see..." as if you've seen at least several groups where this is the case. Have you honestly seen conservative Anabaptists groups that meet the description you gave? I'm sure I never have.

I agree that what Barnhart (and Neto) describes sounds quite sterile. I have been in places where this seems fairly accurate. Many of the routines at such churches do feel quite performative to me. Their routines often seem to be either something they heard or saw that they are trying to mimic, or else their Christianity is fairly boring overall without much heart in it and shows its face in the singing.

In contrast are churches where the folks have their heart into their faith and religion and they are generating new songs, compiling new songbooks, publishing music periodicals and looking for more places to sing. (like John H describes)
And I find that this is typically more likely in churches that forbid playing recorded music and using musical instruments.

[Neto]

The most enthusiastic and infectious song leader I have ever seen was at a small Plymouth Brethren congregation where we attended while my wife was doing her last required semester of graduate level linguistics (not for a degree, just to meet the WBT requirements for Bible translation) in Texas. The song I remember most from him was one I'd never heard before that - OH the Deep, Deep Love of Jesus.

[barnhart]

Grounded and Growing podcast just released an interview with the director of Oasis choir. About 28 minutes in he addresses the bifurcation of worship into activities for the mind and the body.

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1941908/episodes/19677739