Are Mennonites Imputing Abortion Advocasy by their Judgment - a tale of two women

[Josh]

What you are criticizing is not an issue of church governance per se.

What you are describing is an issue of culture. Which is a much tougher nut to crack.

It is in the Mennonite church culture big time. I've seen it. I've heard it. Completely there. But we can apply it to most of Christendom. We are just Mennonites so I have to ask the home base first.

I have yet to see such a ridiculous scenario play out. We have a fornicating-single mother from our church who visits periodically and would welcome her back with open arms if she wanted to live a Christian life. She has said she just can’t and it’s too hard for her. I pray for her regularly to have a born again experience of Jesus’ free gift of salvation and freedom from sin - not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We had another who got into a marriage she shouldn’t have. Eventually he left her and was abusive and she returned to church. She raised her son in church but it was hard and he didn’t want to join nor be a Christian. She died in her 50s.

Her now adult son had a change of heart and over the course of a year, found salvation. I look forward to the day he and his mother can be reunited along with all of the other saints in the great cloud of witnesses. Are not there things worth living and dying for greater than having a postcard-perfect family photo?

[Ken]

What you are criticizing is not an issue of church governance per se.

What you are describing is an issue of culture. Which is a much tougher nut to crack.

It is in the Mennonite church culture big time. I've seen it. I've heard it. Completely there. But we can apply it to most of Christendom. We are just Mennonites so I have to ask the home base first.

I think there are some church cultures that would behave as you describe and many others that would not.

There is also a degree of hypocrisy here. A 17 year old boy who gets a girl pregnant would not get the same treatment at all.

[Josh]

I think there are some church cultures that would behave as you describe and many others that would not.

There is also a degree of hypocrisy here. A 17 year old boy who gets a girl pregnant would not get the same treatment at all.

They certainly would in our circles. It’s the kind of thing one doesn’t easily come back from. Nobody really wants a guy with that kind of behaviour marrying into their family - they would say he should stick with the girl he got pregnant, marry her, or if she doesn’t want to, he needs to focus on being a dad.

[Soloist]

I think there are some church cultures that would behave as you describe and many others that would not.

There is also a degree of hypocrisy here. A 17 year old boy who gets a girl pregnant would not get the same treatment at all.

They certainly would in our circles. It’s the kind of thing one doesn’t easily come back from. Nobody really wants a guy with that kind of behaviour marrying into their family - they would say he should stick with the girl he got pregnant, marry her, or if she doesn’t want to, he needs to focus on being a dad.

Wife: I sort of think the guy would yet the harsher treatment than the girl in our circles and be less marriageable.
I haven’t actually seen this scenario play out, although I’m sure it might sometimes. occasionally in Christian circles, I’ve seen them try to convince the girl to marry the baby’s dad (or the other way around), although I don’t personally think that’s a good idea if they aren’t Christians and into drugs or whatever.

I really don’t think that the older youth or adults typically make fun of or make people like that (especially those from the world) the butt of jokes. that sounds more like a grade schooler behavior, and I would be horrified if I ever heard it. that would be the guy (or girl) no one would want to marry if they heard them making fun of someone like that.

Granted, I am not privy to every conversation, and I’ve never been in an ultra conservative church, but I really don’t think OPs scenario is a normal representation of Mennonites

[Ernie]

Do we advocate murder by judging somebody into a box?

Did you used to post under the name "Chris"?

[mrbilliam]

What you are criticizing is not an issue of church governance per se.

What you are describing is an issue of culture. Which is a much tougher nut to crack.

It is in the Mennonite church culture big time. I've seen it. I've heard it. Completely there. But we can apply it to most of Christendom. We are just Mennonites so I have to ask the home base first.

I think there are some church cultures that would behave as you describe and many others that would not.

There is also a degree of hypocrisy here. A 17 year old boy who gets a girl pregnant would not get the same treatment at all.

Indeed and I agree the 17 year old boy would not get the same treatment. Out of sight, generally out of mind.

[mrbilliam]

Do we advocate murder by judging somebody into a box?

Did you used to post under the name "Chris"?

No... My name is William but my lifelong nickname is Bill.

[mrbilliam]

I think there are some church cultures that would behave as you describe and many others that would not.

There is also a degree of hypocrisy here. A 17 year old boy who gets a girl pregnant would not get the same treatment at all.

They certainly would in our circles. It’s the kind of thing one doesn’t easily come back from. Nobody really wants a guy with that kind of behaviour marrying into their family - they would say he should stick with the girl he got pregnant, marry her, or if she doesn’t want to, he needs to focus on being a dad.

What if he wanted to adopt away the baby and she didn't? Would her non-adoptive choice in the matter put him on the hook forever with the holdemans? I know it's a complex question but I do think my original post is a completely valid scenario and would work that way.

[mrbilliam]

The same applies to the world too. Young women have abortions often because nobody (often) wants a single mom who got pregnant out of wedlock. That said, in a Menno church, I think we all know that "young woman who got pregnant out of wedlock" would be ostracized and single for ever (very likely).

So do our judgments allow people to be free indeed, or do our judgments "impute" a cause which would have her decide to abort a child?

Where are you getting this idea? In the world people date other fornicating-single parents all the time.

In Anabaptist circles, people are expected to be chaste and there are consequences for people who aren’t. When I became a church member, I simply accepted that most girls probably wouldn’t be interested in me. I would estimate 80% of girls don’t want a guy with a “past” and 50% of guys don’t want a girl with a “past”. That meant if I get married, it would probably to be someone in that 20%.

With that said, plenty of people in Anabaptist circles with a past (or even kids from out of wedlock) can and do get married. They just have to find someone who is okay dealing with that. I know a woman who would prefer to marry a man with kids since she is too old to have any (in her opinion) and she would like to be a stepmom, and she also has health issues which make her not want to ever be pregnant.

Josh you took the bait and made my point.

You yourself called Woman1 a "fornicating single mom".
You yourself admitted the "world would marry her".

So basically a woman can come to church and be judged as a fornicating single mom who would most likely never be married, or go to the world and be forgiven and likely married.

This type of harsh judgment by us "perfect Christians" seems to pile the pressure on Woman1 to advocate for her to abort the baby. Then her crime could just be "forgiven", rather than a lifetime of "shame and singleness".

[ken_sylvania]

Josh you took the bait and made my point.

Well, well, well. If you aren't starting to sound like the Pharisees and lawyers who were forever trying to "bait" Jesus into saying things they could use against Him.