Interested in learning about Holdemans

[Ken]

AF used to, but about a year or two ago, they informed any borrowers who had used AF that they needed to refinance with someone else as soon as possible. Going forward they don’t recognise Holdemans anymore as fellow Anabaptists.

One of the people I go to church with had used AF to purchase his grocery store; he refinanced with the local commercial bank.

Why? What changed?

Holdemans and basically the rest of the plain world tend to be at enmity with one another. Most plain organisations that include a variety of groups exclude Holdemans.

On the other hand, worldly organisations that expressly serve plain people do usually allow us to participate.

It’s hard to put in words just how bad the enmity is, particularly in certain places amongst the older generation.

Is there some doctrinal issue involved? What exactly is the source of the enmity?

[theodoreclaudius]

Why? What changed?

Holdemans and basically the rest of the plain world tend to be at enmity with one another. Most plain organisations that include a variety of groups exclude Holdemans.

On the other hand, worldly organisations that expressly serve plain people do usually allow us to participate.

It’s hard to put in words just how bad the enmity is, particularly in certain places amongst the older generation.

Is there some doctrinal issue involved? What exactly is the source of the enmity?

If enmity exists between two groups of christians especially two groups of "Mennonites"
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

[mike]

Why? What changed?

Holdemans and basically the rest of the plain world tend to be at enmity with one another. Most plain organisations that include a variety of groups exclude Holdemans.

On the other hand, worldly organisations that expressly serve plain people do usually allow us to participate.

It’s hard to put in words just how bad the enmity is, particularly in certain places amongst the older generation.

Is there some doctrinal issue involved? What exactly is the source of the enmity?

I think that the source of contention is what is sometimes called the "one true church" doctrine of the Holdemans. This idea, whatever it means, results in things such as the Holdemans not recognizing things such as baptisms and marriages performed outside of their group. I haven't been sure about whether Holdemans accept the idea salvation exists outside of their group, but there has at least been the broad impression that they may not.

I never heard of Holdemans complaining that other Mennonite groups don't interact enough with them until I heard this from Josh here on MN; I've always thought that being aloof and separate from all other groups was basically part of the Holdeman Mennonite ethos. I guess it's possible that all this time Holdemans have resented that they are kept at arm's length by other groups, while everybody else has been thinking they want it that way.

[Soloist]

I think that the source of contention is what is sometimes called the "one true church" doctrine of the Holdemans. This idea, whatever it means, results in things such as the Holdemans not recognizing things such as baptisms and marriages performed outside of their group. I haven't been sure about whether Holdemans accept the idea salvation exists outside of their group, but there has at least been the broad impression that they may not.

I never heard of Holdemans complaining that other Mennonite groups don't interact enough with them until I heard this from Josh here on MN; I've always thought that being aloof and separate from all other groups was basically part of the Holdeman Mennonite ethos. I guess it's possible that all this time Holdemans have resented that they are kept at arm's length by other groups, while everybody else has been thinking they want it that way.

German Baptists require rebaptism too and they don't seem to have any of the negative flack against them. As for marriages, I think that would only apply to members going elsewhere for a marriage. I don't believe there would be any stance against recognizing my marriage or yours.

[Signtist]

It’s hard to put in words just how bad the enmity is, particularly in certain places amongst the older generation.

I think that the source of contention is what is sometimes called the "one true church" doctrine of the Holdemans. This idea, whatever it means, results in things such as the Holdemans not recognizing things such as baptisms and marriages performed outside of their group. I haven't been sure about whether Holdemans accept the idea salvation exists outside of their group, but there has at least been the broad impression that they may not.

I never heard of Holdemans complaining that other Mennonite groups don't interact enough with them until I heard this from Josh here on MN; I've always thought that being aloof and separate from all other groups was basically part of the Holdeman Mennonite ethos. I guess it's possible that all this time Holdemans have resented that they are kept at arm's length by other groups, while everybody else has been thinking they want it that way.

I'm confused, too. What Josh says is fact on here is not really what I've experienced. Dad has worked with Holdemans and there has never been "enmity". My brother has very close Holdeman neighbours, and I don't use "close" to mean proximity. They are very good friends, my nephew will call youth from either sex his friends. They interact regularly. In a situation where funerals had to be by invitation only, many of our church people couldn't come to my niece's funeral, but there were Holdeman people there. I have Holdeman suppliers, clients, I've been in a half dozen Holdeman homes, I've been in Holdeman churches, invited to their weddings, worked with Holdemans, stayed in Holdeman homes for a week while we roofed Holdeman homes in Florida after a hurricane. I have never yet met one who seemed to actually believe that their church was the only right way, and I've asked them. Maybe they do and are scared to admit it out loud. I would think by now one of us would have picked up on that attitude, though. I do not for a minute believe there is deep seated enmity between all Mennonites and all Holdemans. Maybe on a church level, I don't know. But certainly not on a personal level.

[Ken]

Holdemans and basically the rest of the plain world tend to be at enmity with one another. Most plain organisations that include a variety of groups exclude Holdemans.

On the other hand, worldly organisations that expressly serve plain people do usually allow us to participate.

It’s hard to put in words just how bad the enmity is, particularly in certain places amongst the older generation.

Is there some doctrinal issue involved? What exactly is the source of the enmity?

I think that the source of contention is what is sometimes called the "one true church" doctrine of the Holdemans. This idea, whatever it means, results in things such as the Holdemans not recognizing things such as baptisms and marriages performed outside of their group. I haven't been sure about whether Holdemans accept the idea salvation exists outside of their group, but there has at least been the broad impression that they may not.

I never heard of Holdemans complaining that other Mennonite groups don't interact enough with them until I heard this from Josh here on MN; I've always thought that being aloof and separate from all other groups was basically part of the Holdeman Mennonite ethos. I guess it's possible that all this time Holdemans have resented that they are kept at arm's length by other groups, while everybody else has been thinking they want it that way.

My impression has always been that the Holdemans tend not to participate in other pan-Menno organizations like MDS and relief sales and that sort of thing that usually brings together most of the other Anabaptists in a region. So I guess I would wonder why they wanted to take advantage of other Meno-affiliated business and financial organizations.

Josh is describing a 2-way enmity which I wasn't aware existed. Enmity is a strong word. Lutherans and Mennos don't tend to associate all that closely either but I would never use the term enmity to describe that relationship.

[Ken]

It’s hard to put in words just how bad the enmity is, particularly in certain places amongst the older generation.

I think that the source of contention is what is sometimes called the "one true church" doctrine of the Holdemans. This idea, whatever it means, results in things such as the Holdemans not recognizing things such as baptisms and marriages performed outside of their group. I haven't been sure about whether Holdemans accept the idea salvation exists outside of their group, but there has at least been the broad impression that they may not.

I never heard of Holdemans complaining that other Mennonite groups don't interact enough with them until I heard this from Josh here on MN; I've always thought that being aloof and separate from all other groups was basically part of the Holdeman Mennonite ethos. I guess it's possible that all this time Holdemans have resented that they are kept at arm's length by other groups, while everybody else has been thinking they want it that way.

I'm confused, too. What Josh says is fact on here is not really what I've experienced. Dad has worked with Holdemans and there has never been "enmity". My brother has very close Holdeman neighbours, and I don't use "close" to mean proximity. They are very good friends, my nephew will call youth from either sex his friends. They interact regularly. In a situation where funerals had to be by invitation only, many of our church people couldn't come to my niece's funeral, but there were Holdeman people there. I have Holdeman suppliers, clients, I've been in a half dozen Holdeman homes, I've been in Holdeman churches, invited to their weddings, worked with Holdemans, stayed in Holdeman homes for a week while we roofed Holdeman homes in Florida after a hurricane. I have never yet met one who seemed to actually believe that their church was the only right way, and I've asked them. Maybe they do and are scared to admit it out loud. I would think by now one of us would have picked up on that attitude, though. I do not for a minute believe there is deep seated enmity between all Mennonites and all Holdemans. Maybe on a church level, I don't know. But certainly not on a personal level.

In my experience, most ordinary folks don't get wrapped up in doctrinal issues. If I happen to be associating with Lutheran or Methodist or Baptist neighbors or co-workers we don't EVER fall into discussions or disputes about articles of faith or specific doctrinal issues like the form of baptism or communion. And there most certainly isn't ever any religious-based enmity. Most people are by nature generous.

[ohio jones]

I think that the source of contention is what is sometimes called the "one true church" doctrine of the Holdemans. This idea, whatever it means, results in things such as the Holdemans not recognizing things such as baptisms and marriages performed outside of their group.

German Baptists require rebaptism too and they don't seem to have any of the negative flack against them. As for marriages, I think that would only apply to members going elsewhere for a marriage. I don't believe there would be any stance against recognizing my marriage or yours.

If Mike wanted to join Josh's church, his marriage would be recognized but not his baptism. If Josh wanted to join MIke's church, his baptism would be recognized but not his marriage.

Do I have that right?

[mike]

I think that the source of contention is what is sometimes called the "one true church" doctrine of the Holdemans. This idea, whatever it means, results in things such as the Holdemans not recognizing things such as baptisms and marriages performed outside of their group. I haven't been sure about whether Holdemans accept the idea salvation exists outside of their group, but there has at least been the broad impression that they may not.

I never heard of Holdemans complaining that other Mennonite groups don't interact enough with them until I heard this from Josh here on MN; I've always thought that being aloof and separate from all other groups was basically part of the Holdeman Mennonite ethos. I guess it's possible that all this time Holdemans have resented that they are kept at arm's length by other groups, while everybody else has been thinking they want it that way.

German Baptists require rebaptism too and they don't seem to have any of the negative flack against them. As for marriages, I think that would only apply to members going elsewhere for a marriage. I don't believe there would be any stance against recognizing my marriage or yours.

German Baptists however place no claim to be the one true church and have no issue with interacting with other conservative Anabaptist denominations in various ways. As far as marriages, from what I understand if someone was married outside their group and subsequently divorced, they would be permitted to remarry within the Holdeman church; that prior marriage was done outside their church and is thus seen as invalid. Now if someone was married within their church, and subsequently divorced, they would not be permitted to remarry because that marriage happened within their church. As I understand it anyway.

[theodoreclaudius]

I think that the source of contention is what is sometimes called the "one true church" doctrine of the Holdemans. This idea, whatever it means, results in things such as the Holdemans not recognizing things such as baptisms and marriages performed outside of their group.

German Baptists require rebaptism too and they don't seem to have any of the negative flack against them. As for marriages, I think that would only apply to members going elsewhere for a marriage. I don't believe there would be any stance against recognizing my marriage or yours.

If Mike wanted to join Josh's church, his marriage would be recognized but not his baptism. If Josh wanted to join MIke's church, his baptism would be recognized but not his marriage.

Do I have that right?

I grew up with my parents marriage in tact they are still together and really love each other. They were not christians then and to this day are not serious about Christianity . But my father has two prior divorces from two former wives. I can submit to Christ's teaching that divorce and remarriage is a form of adultery.

That said, it's rather allot to join a church we're I am now doctrinally the offspring of an adulterous relationship. If the Holdeman church allows people like my parents to be accepted into communion I cannot say that that I am offended, I would take communion with my parents if they joined a church , wanted to live sincerely Christian lives, and remained together.