To beard or not to beard

[Josh]

Josh, you do realize that statistically "outsiders" have a very low chance of surviving in the Mennonite culture.

How long have you been at your current church? How many have you already been to? You are tracking statistically with "what usually happens to outsiders".

But you could defy the odds. Some do.

I just think you may reassess some of your strong stances later with age and experience. I know it looks improbably. I have been there.

I’ve been there 5 years, a member 3. My church does seem to have a lot of “seekers” in it.

The church I was in before this ceased to exist, so I already outlasted one of them.

[ontariomartin]

For something that was mentioned once in a handful of verses, a lot seems to ride on that.

I'm trying to understand what this means. Does this imply that everything in scripture that is only mentioned once isn't really important, because if we were supposed to take it seriously it would be repeated multiple times?
That seems like a very complicated way to approach scripture.........

Try being baptized without one.

If you are in any conservative church, you cannot tell me you have never heard the incredulous comments about some lady and her relationship with the covering (on, off, big, small). We fancy ourselves as being able to tell her spiritual standing.

I know what you mean here. Not sure how it relates to taking seriously things that are only mentioned once in the Bible.

I didn't say ignore things that are mentioned in fewer verses.

Sorry for misinterpreting what you wrote.

But the Bible talks about many other things more frequently that we over look. Greed, envy, gossip, love.

Not sure who we is but anyone that willingly overlooks all these is not a practicing Christian no matter what they wear or say or where they go to church. And it seems to me to be a weak excuse for not acknowledging other teachings, just because some people ignore certain parts of scripture.....

[Heirbyadoption]

A smaller kapp is felt appropriate for everyday wear. For formal worship services, more formal clothing is worn, and a more explicit “head covering” is worn (as opposed to a smaller, more symbolic covering).
For reference, until the 1950s, Holdemans didn’t wear coverings at all outside of church services.

This is interesting. So, after reading your last couple posts here (and perhaps we ought to move to the headcovering post, lol), what you're saying is that the Holdemans, who wear a full headscarf in worship services rather than the typical Menno mesh bun-cover, have actually moved toward more regular covering with their full time black opaque caps rather than sliding away from covering. But you are willing to generalize most other Plain churches who have moved (or are moving) from denominationally identifiable mesh bun covers toward opaque hanging veils as mostly being on the slope of heading for doilies and away from coverings, and therefore you're willing to dismiss specific examples such as Mike is willing to offer as "quite rare"... Would that be a fair recap thus far?

I guess, laying aside the generalizations and dismissals that would give my poor old sociology professor a stroke, what I'm curious about is whether you think that the slippery slope and ultimate covering demise which you are positing is really due to the shift in style itself, or might it possibly be (presuming your generalized premise is proven accurate over the next few generations) more about the A. motivation behind the shift, or B. the move away from requiring a uniform style?

[Josh]

A smaller kapp is felt appropriate for everyday wear. For formal worship services, more formal clothing is worn, and a more explicit “head covering” is worn (as opposed to a smaller, more symbolic covering).
For reference, until the 1950s, Holdemans didn’t wear coverings at all outside of church services.

This is interesting. So, after reading your last couple posts here (and perhaps we ought to move to the headcovering post, lol), what you're saying is that the Holdemans, who wear a full headscarf in worship services rather than the typical Menno mesh bun-cover, have actually moved toward more regular covering with their full time black opaque caps rather than sliding away from covering. But you are willing to generalize most other Plain churches who have moved (or are moving) from denominationally identifiable mesh bun covers toward opaque hanging veils as mostly being on the slope of heading for doilies and away from coverings, and therefore you're willing to dismiss specific examples such as Mike is willing to offer as "quite rare"... Would that be a fair recap thus far?

Yes, counterexamples are quite rare. They're rare enough that they aren't really even worth considering.

If you want to be in a church that still has coverings 2 or 3 generations later, it's a wise choice to look for one that sticks with traditional coverings.

I guess, laying aside the generalizations and dismissals that would give my poor old sociology professor a stroke, what I'm curious about is whether you think that the slippery slope and ultimate covering demise which you are positing is really due to the shift in style itself, or might it possibly be (presuming your generalized premise is proven accurate over the next few generations) more about the A. motivation behind the shift, or B. the move away from requiring a uniform style?

No, the shift in style is a symptom of an overall slide towards worldliness. Most of the time a group transitioning away from traditional style coverings is moving towards the world.

[mike]

Yes, counterexamples are quite rare. They're rare enough that they aren't really even worth considering.

A few of the examples I know of that are apparently not worth considering:

Shippensburg Christian Fellowship
Off-shoot congregations in Chambersburg and St. Thomas, PA, and one in West Virginia.

Harmony Christian Fellowship with numerous off-shoot congregations in PA, along with other former Charity churches in its network such as Ephrata Christian Fellowship

Some Beachy Amish congregations

I'm only going with just examples of churches that I know of personally that have worn hanging veils for several generations and don't seem to be headed toward "doilies" or dropping the head covering all together. I'm sure if I thought a little longer I could come up with more, and I know there are many more out there.

Maybe it would be worth thinking about what makes these churches different from the ones that have taken the path of constant change until they drop the practice altogether. I'm not saying that hasn't happened frequently; my point would be that counterexamples may not be as rare as you think.

[Soloist]

There probably isn’t a rule against opaque kapps... if that was truly someone’s concern who is pushing for hanging veils.

I have yet to hear the hanging-veil people explain how they won’t all end up with doily coverings, and then none, in a generation or two. They just pretend this phenomenon doesn’t exist.

Haven't really followed the thread, but Eastern doesn't permit an opaque covering... Its something that we looked into.

[ken_sylvania]

There probably isn’t a rule against opaque kapps... if that was truly someone’s concern who is pushing for hanging veils.

I have yet to hear the hanging-veil people explain how they won’t all end up with doily coverings, and then none, in a generation or two. They just pretend this phenomenon doesn’t exist.

Haven't really followed the thread, but Eastern doesn't permit an opaque covering... Its something that we looked into.

As a general rule that would be correct. There have been a few exceptions on occasion.

[Josh]

There probably isn’t a rule against opaque kapps... if that was truly someone’s concern who is pushing for hanging veils.

I have yet to hear the hanging-veil people explain how they won’t all end up with doily coverings, and then none, in a generation or two. They just pretend this phenomenon doesn’t exist.

Haven't really followed the thread, but Eastern doesn't permit an opaque covering... Its something that we looked into.

Once I went with a group of singing young people, nearly all from church fellowships such as your own, or like the one Mike is talking about. One girl was there who was part of an ultra conservative church. Her church required dresses cut like they were 50 years ago, so hers was much shorter than everyone else’s. (The fashion trend among Hope / Pilgrim / Western Fellowship in the 2000s was towards longer “maxi” dresses.)

I can sometimes admire people who’s commitment to tradition is so strong they stick with traditions that were liberal / worldly 100 years ago.

[Soloist]

Once I went with a group of singing young people, nearly all from church fellowships such as your own, or like the one Mike is talking about. One girl was there who was part of an ultra conservative church. Her church required dresses cut like they were 50 years ago, so hers was much shorter than everyone else’s. (The fashion trend among Hope / Pilgrim / Western Fellowship in the 2000s was towards longer “maxi” dresses.)

I can sometimes admire people who’s commitment to tradition is so strong they stick with traditions that were liberal / worldly 100 years ago.

personally, I think the goes down must go up argument is silly. I would rather all the ladies kept it long then short. Generally speaking though, no one seems to be bothered by outsiders having a long dress, just the insiders because of fad concerns. (by long I mean around upper to lower ankles).
If I was to mandate something I would say it like Clement of Alexandria... "have it to the ankle, but if you can't do that, at least have it below the knee while sitting"

[Josh]

Once I went with a group of singing young people, nearly all from church fellowships such as your own, or like the one Mike is talking about. One girl was there who was part of an ultra conservative church. Her church required dresses cut like they were 50 years ago, so hers was much shorter than everyone else’s. (The fashion trend among Hope / Pilgrim / Western Fellowship in the 2000s was towards longer “maxi” dresses.)

I can sometimes admire people who’s commitment to tradition is so strong they stick with traditions that were liberal / worldly 100 years ago.

personally, I think the goes down must go up argument is silly. I would rather all the ladies kept it long then short. Generally speaking though, no one seems to be bothered by outsiders having a long dress, just the insiders because of fad concerns. (by long I mean around upper to lower ankles).
If I was to mandate something I would say it like Clement of Alexandria... "have it to the ankle, but if you can't do that, at least have it below the knee while sitting"

In my church the current fad is to go back to the styles popular in the 60s/70s. For example, one girl (the youngest in her family) wore her mother’s wedding dress to church the other Sunday.

Of course some people are bothered by this since styles were shorter back then.