By Thy Words

[Signtist]

1. If you don't like the church rules, don't go there. Or if you did join, leave. -Josh

2. Easy for you to say, you were an adult when you joined. A lot of kids have fairly strong indoctrination to join their particular church.

3. What's a better option? Make em wait til they're 18? -Josh

4. Or wish them a blessing as they leave YOUR CHURCH.

5. Would you bless a person walking away from God? -Josh

6. Nobody, but you, Josh, mentioned the person walking away from God.

7. That is because his church views all people who leave it as walking away from God.

8. What I said has NOTHING to do with my church. -Josh

[ragpicker]

Wade and Soloist, that you believe me and are so kind makes me cry. Thank you.

There’s a massive drive out there for revenge for the pain that has been experienced. Also a drive to destroy. I understand that. I’ve been there. But I want no part of it. If we can’t Love, we don’t know Love. It’s entirely possible to Love and to call out sin. That’s how I want to live.

[ken_sylvania]

Dad was excommunicated for letting Mose Stoltzfus sleep at our house. I'm not even certain he knew the guy was there til the next morning.

Given some of the comments on here I would wonder if some might think that was legit That being said... I'm sorry... that seems a gross abuse of authority.

Mose was flawed. Everyone is. But I'm pretty sure dad would have given him a bed and meal if he was an outright blatant sinner. As he should have.

Exactly.

[danfreed]

Wade and Soloist, that you believe me and are so kind makes me cry. Thank you.

There’s a massive drive out there for revenge for the pain that has been experienced. Also a drive to destroy. I understand that. I’ve been there. But I want no part of it. If we can’t Love, we don’t know Love. It’s entirely possible to Love and to call out sin. That’s how I want to live.

Ragpicker, thank you for being so open with your story and for highlighting those who showed kindness to you in the past, and on this thread. I also believe your account and am sorry for your pain. I'm so glad for your testimony of finding the way of Jesus and His Love to overcome the hurt.

ABC, thanks for starting this thread. It certainly has created interest. I never heard of "By Your Words" blog before, but reading it certainly brought back memories of some of the twisted logic I heard growing up, all under the guise of spirituality. The last series from the 2005 Christian Example long-distance trucking article (Snare of the Fowler) was quite realistic with how I remember the prevailing attitude toward trucking. Trucking and the CB radio was almost as "bad" as college, which was the path I choose. Also, that series illustrates the blindness and scorn toward depression and other struggles.

For those who don't know, my church background was also the Rod and Staff / Eastern PA Mennonite settings, and although I did not experience the level of spiritual abuse that ragpicker described, there was much pain and residual baggage that I continue to work through, since leaving in 1983 at the age of 19. I can relate to your desire for revenge (anger, hatred, bitterness), but I also have found the freedom you describe, all because of Jesus and His love placed in my heart. As you wrote so well (bolded words above), this love does not sweep sin under the carpet. Love does not endorse the abuse, control and shame methods in these church systems. I expect to continue to deal with the critical "voices in my mind" from the past. I also am learning how to be encouraging instead of critical. So much to learn.

I hope that By Your Words can help us move away from twisted, self-righteous thinking into the truth and freedom of Jesus. How we are trained to think in childhood is a challenge to change. But transformed thinking is possible by the God, the Holy Spirit working in our minds.

And what a blessing to be part of a Christ-centered, loving, encouraging church fellowship! I thank God for all the positive fellowship he has given me since 1983.


Romans12:2b "...let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect...."

[Josh]

Wade and Soloist, that you believe me and are so kind makes me cry. Thank you.

There’s a massive drive out there for revenge for the pain that has been experienced. Also a drive to destroy. I understand that. I’ve been there. But I want no part of it. If we can’t Love, we don’t know Love. It’s entirely possible to Love and to call out sin. That’s how I want to live.

ragpicker,

With respect, have you ever paused to consider if you might have accidentally walked into another "system" just as wicked and harmful as the one you left?

[Josh]

1. If you don't like the church rules, don't go there. Or if you did join, leave. -Josh

2. Easy for you to say, you were an adult when you joined. A lot of kids have fairly strong indoctrination to join their particular church.

3. What's a better option? Make em wait til they're 18? -Josh

4. Or wish them a blessing as they leave YOUR CHURCH.

5. Would you bless a person walking away from God? -Josh

6. Nobody, but you, Josh, mentioned the person walking away from God.

7. That is because his church views all people who leave it as walking away from God.

8. What I said has NOTHING to do with my church. -Josh

What is the boundary at which you would no longer "bless" your kids for "leaving"?

[ragpicker]

Wade and Soloist, that you believe me and are so kind makes me cry. Thank you.

There’s a massive drive out there for revenge for the pain that has been experienced. Also a drive to destroy. I understand that. I’ve been there. But I want no part of it. If we can’t Love, we don’t know Love. It’s entirely possible to Love and to call out sin. That’s how I want to live.

ragpicker,

With respect, have you ever paused to consider if you might have accidentally walked into another "system" just as wicked and harmful as the one you left?

Yes. I have considered that. I wrestled long and hard with God over it. Brutal, tear stained, agonizing wrestling. I tear up, just remembering the agony.

Just as wicked and harmful? I disagree quite strongly. But a system non-the-less.

I’m interested in hearing more what you’re alluding to. If you prefer to go private, you should have my cell number to text me.

[Josh]

Wade and Soloist, that you believe me and are so kind makes me cry. Thank you.

There’s a massive drive out there for revenge for the pain that has been experienced. Also a drive to destroy. I understand that. I’ve been there. But I want no part of it. If we can’t Love, we don’t know Love. It’s entirely possible to Love and to call out sin. That’s how I want to live.

ragpicker,

With respect, have you ever paused to consider if you might have accidentally walked into another "system" just as wicked and harmful as the one you left?

Yes. I have considered that. I wrestled long and hard with God over it. Brutal, tear stained, agonizing wrestling. I tear up, just remembering the agony.

Just as wicked and harmful? I disagree quite strongly. But a system non-the-less.

I’m interested in hearing more what you’re alluding to. If you prefer to go private, you should have my cell number to text me.

Sure, send me a message. I don’t have your phone number, FYI.

[Abbott]

Yes. It was devastating to me, and was a significant driver of the bitterness that for years consumed my heart. Some of the denizens of the old MD witnessed that bitterness and the repentance of it.

But I got the ultimate revenge. I forgave them and I love them. I literally go out of my way to connect with some of the people involved. I have no pain. I am grateful for the journey.

There's something divinely wonderful about that last paragraph. And the tone of your writing rings true to the tone of forgiveness, not the clanging of bitterness.

[Abbott]

What I said has nothing to do with my particular kind of church.

No, but what I said did. In its basic form, what you said was a manipulation of the discussion. I never mentioned walking away from God, you did. I specifically mentioned walking away from YOUR church, and you took it from there and twisted it.

You have a history of twisting the discussion and then get aggrivated when people say "that's not what we were saying". It's frustrating.

I have to agree with Signtist on this. Earlier in this thread, there was an attempt to turn specific points I raised with problematic thinking promoted by the author of the book under discussion into a generalized blanket statement about that author that I did not make. It came across as a sideways attempt to discredit valid discussion points. Which in turn makes it difficult to have an honest and productive discussion. I'm not personally offended by such attempts, but wish we could avoid cases of "the twisties".