Daniel Penny

[ken_sylvania]

I would not have done what Penny did. I can not judge him for his actions since I see it as a reaction to an uncontrolled drug addict that was aggressively assaulting others. He was about to get physical as he had done in the past. I suspect many on the subway had encountered him before and knew his tendency to get violent.

For me, it feels like we are blaming the victim instead of blaming the out of control drug addict that was assaulting others. Even Mayor Eric Adams has shared support for Penny. Some are starting to see it.

Everybody wants to be the victim. If we are going to use that word, I think the unarmed person who was killed, while not doing anything violent, is more of a victim than the person who killed him, had a trial with a jury of his peers, and was acquitted.

I do not believe that Penny is guilty of a crime, though I would feel differently if he were working as law enforcement and had the necessary training. I was a wrestler in high school, and I have physically restrained people to prevent violence. I have never killed anyone. I have never restrained anyone who was not an active threat at the time. If I received training in something like a chokehold, I would want to know how to avoid killing anyone. I don't think Penny had extensive training.

But I also believe that Neely was killed. And that killing homeless people or crazy people is bad. I also believe Neely was not threatening anyone. To me, that makes Neely a victim.

In some countries, people can just go around shooting homeless people with impunity. All killing is, in fact, killing. Every life matters. I think it's important to remember that. I continue to have real difficulty with the claim that Penny did not kill Neely. That feels like a very 1984 approach to words - "Killing is not killing".

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion.

I think that it is very corrosive to society when we accuse reasonable people of being unreasonable just because they disagree with us. I think that Penny killed Neely, but I also am willing to accept that reasonable people might disagree with me.

[JohnH]

But I also believe that Neely was killed. And that killing homeless people or crazy people is bad. I also believe Neely was not threatening anyone. To me, that makes Neely a victim.

I agree. I learned this from The Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... tal-health

n 2021, Neely was arrested after punching a 67-year-old woman in the head, severely injuring her and landing him in Rikers Island, New York City’s notorious jail, on charges of second-degree assault. A judge released him in February, as part of a plea deal requiring him to stay at an intensive inpatient treatment center for 15 months.

But he walked out after 13 days and disappeared. Less than three months later, Jordan Neely was dead.

The intensive treatment included supportive housing and programs to reintegrate with society

If he had stayed in that program he would likely still be alive now and also would have been able to probably get treatment for schizophrenia.

Unfortunately, he did not, and despite the judge's orders apparently he could just walk out of the treatment center (I am not sure if it is a mental hospital or not?) Seems that's where the mistake was made.

I also think that someone who punches a 67 year old woman in the head and severely injures her shouldn't be freely roaming the subway. In lieu of prison the intensive treatment center for 15 months sounds like a very fair plan.

[Bootstrap]

But I also believe that Neely was killed. And that killing homeless people or crazy people is bad. I also believe Neely was not threatening anyone. To me, that makes Neely a victim.

I agree. I learned this from The Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... tal-health

n 2021, Neely was arrested after punching a 67-year-old woman in the head, severely injuring her and landing him in Rikers Island, New York City’s notorious jail, on charges of second-degree assault. A judge released him in February, as part of a plea deal requiring him to stay at an intensive inpatient treatment center for 15 months.

But he walked out after 13 days and disappeared. Less than three months later, Jordan Neely was dead.

The intensive treatment included supportive housing and programs to reintegrate with society

If he had stayed in that program he would likely still be alive now and also would have been able to probably get treatment for schizophrenia.

Unfortunately, he did not, and despite the judge's orders apparently he could just walk out of the treatment center (I am not sure if it is a mental hospital or not?) Seems that's where the mistake was made.

Ouch. That's bad. FWIW, prison-based programs often fail to enforce these things or offer meaningful programs. And all too often, we are using prisons as the default mental health hospitals. They do not have the resources to do that.

We need good programs for drug rehab and mental health.

I also think that someone who punches a 67 year old woman in the head and severely injures her shouldn't be freely roaming the subway. In lieu of prison the intensive treatment center for 15 months sounds like a very fair plan.

I agree.

But he shouldn't be able to just walk away, that should have been enforced. And we do need better programs. Of course, it's hard to help mentally ill people. And I'm not convinced that they are always able to make the decisions that you and I do.

[JohnH]

Ouch. That's bad. FWIW, prison-based programs often fail to enforce these things or offer meaningful programs. And all too often, we are using prisons as the default mental health hospitals. They do not have the resources to do that.

well it wasn't a prison based program, he was sent to what was apparently a good program and porvided with mental health resources

We need good programs for drug rehab and mental health.

which he was provided

But he shouldn't be able to just walk away, that should have been enforced.

well that would be a "prison" wouldn't it? prisons are a place you aren't allowed to leave.

And we do need better programs. Of course, it's hard to help mentally ill people.

hard to see what could be done here. he was offered an alternative to prison, being locked up - offered mental health treatment in a good facility. he decided to walk away from it.

And I'm not convinced that they are always able to make the decisions that you and I do.

I agree, but just because they can't do that, doesn't mean they should be allowed to run amok on the subway, beating up elderly women.

these series of choices and actions led to Daniel Penny needing to restrain him. If someone is not able to control themselves from hurting others, then they need to be locked up and restrained. I don't see how it's reasonable to think anything else

[temporal1]

.. For me, it feels like we are blaming the victim instead of blaming the out of control drug addict that was assaulting others.

Even Mayor Eric Adams has shared support for Penny. Some are starting to see it.

i wouldn’t have used the word, victim, here, far more important, i haven’t noticed DP come close to using it.
Robert might add more about his perspective on it. either way, it would be a shame to bunny trail off on it. not worth it.

i pray for DP’s safety. and sanity. he makes an easy target. no one needs another wasted young life.

i don’t believe DP killed JN, not intentionally, not accidentally. God knows and will judge.
God will judge the rest of us, too.

[temporal1]

MALICIOUS PROSECUTION ?

“Daniel Penny's defense team considers malicious prosecution lawsuit against Alvin Bragg's office”
Attorney Steven Raiser accused Bragg of "blurring" the "ethical lines" in the way the case was handled.
https://thepostmillennial.com/daniel-pe ... ggs-office

Forbes / What Is Malicious Prosecution? Legal Definition & Examples
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/pe ... osecution/

[Judas Maccabeus]

Ouch. That's bad. FWIW, prison-based programs often fail to enforce these things or offer meaningful programs. And all too often, we are using prisons as the default mental health hospitals. They do not have the resources to do that.

well it wasn't a prison based program, he was sent to what was apparently a good program and porvided with mental health resources

We need good programs for drug rehab and mental health.

which he was provided

But he shouldn't be able to just walk away, that should have been enforced.

well that would be a "prison" wouldn't it? prisons are a place you aren't allowed to leave.

And we do need better programs. Of course, it's hard to help mentally ill people.

hard to see what could be done here. he was offered an alternative to prison, being locked up - offered mental health treatment in a good facility. he decided to walk away from it.

And I'm not convinced that they are always able to make the decisions that you and I do.

I agree, but just because they can't do that, doesn't mean they should be allowed to run amok on the subway, beating up elderly women.

these series of choices and actions led to Daniel Penny needing to restrain him. If someone is not able to control themselves from hurting others, then they need to be locked up and restrained. I don't see how it's reasonable to think anything else

We have such institutions in Maryland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patuxent_Institution

He should have been kept in a place like this, not sent into the community. You get an inderminant sentence. You stay under lock and key until the Board of Review thinks you are well. Just wish they had more capacity. If you are sent from there to a community program, and walk away, they go and get you, and put you under lock and key.

I think this gent was likely suited for a stay at Clifton T. Perkins:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifton_T ... tal_Center

The program he was sent to seems to have been totally unsuitable.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I was treating it patient from one of the state hospitals when, before I had even begun, hopped up and started choking me. The two aids who were with him were unable to get him to release his hold. My partner, hearing the commotion, ran into my suite saw the patient, and shouted “if you don’t let him go, I’ll kill you.” Now my partner was black, 6’5””, 310 lbs. and played offensive line at a division 1 school, quit after 2 years because football was a dead end. Guy let me go and quietly laid down. I asked my partner if he actually would have done violence, answer “no, but I know how to play scary black man, I figured I could intimidate him without even touching him.” AIDS thanked him. I owe him my life.

Love this story. Your partner is resourceful.

We were a good fit together. I am a bit of a geek who was a master of the technical stuff. He was less skilled technically, but had far better hands on skills. He could get an IV into an apple, and get good blood return if he set his mind to it. We worked together off and on throughout our 40 year careers, mostly on.

[JohnL]

I was treating it patient from one of the state hospitals when, before I had even begun, hopped up and started choking me. The two aids who were with him were unable to get him to release his hold. My partner, hearing the commotion, ran into my suite saw the patient, and shouted “if you don’t let him go, I’ll kill you.” Now my partner was black, 6’5””, 310 lbs. and played offensive line at a division 1 school, quit after 2 years because football was a dead end. Guy let me go and quietly laid down. I asked my partner if he actually would have done violence, answer “no, but I know how to play scary black man, I figured I could intimidate him without even touching him.” AIDS thanked him. I owe him my life.

Love this story. Your partner is resourceful.

We were a good fit together. I am a bit of a geek who was a master of the technical stuff. He was less skilled technically, but had far better hands on skills. He could get an IV into an apple, and get good blood return if he set his mind to it. We worked together off and on throughout our 40 year careers, mostly on.

With a great friend like that I'd adopt him in a heartbeat him and his family. You are blessed. Do you still meet with him?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Love this story. Your partner is resourceful.

We were a good fit together. I am a bit of a geek who was a master of the technical stuff. He was less skilled technically, but had far better hands on skills. He could get an IV into an apple, and get good blood return if he set his mind to it. We worked together off and on throughout our 40 year careers, mostly on.

With a great friend like that I'd adopt him in a heartbeat him and his family. You are blessed. Do you still meet with him?

Yes. Both of us retired, but are still in touch.