Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

Particularly concerning is how Ukrainian nationalism is being so widely accepted, neo-Nazis and all. I don't think formal neo-Nazis in the formal military is a particularly good thing, with neo-Nazi.

Wait, believing they have a right to live in their own country is now called "nationalism" and it's related to being a neo-Nazi? Seriously?

You seem to believe Ukranians have no right to exist unless Putin gives them permission. That's not how they see it. Seems like a strange position for a Mennonite to take. Do Mennonites now defend warmongers against those who sympathize with their victims?

I don't think either side is innocent here, Ukrainian or Russian (or the West which is egging Ukraine on). Both sides are warmongers. But when a small country with a small military tries to be a warmonger, it goes really poorly for everyone involved. That's why I'm very disappointed the West is egging this conflict on.

Overall, I'm not sure I'd agree with Bootstrap that "Americans are willing to accept $6/gal gas because we are taking a strong moral stance".

Josh, I have no idea what Americans are willing to accept, and I didn't say that. But I don't think gas prices are the most important moral concern here.

You did...

I think that the reasons for a US embargo are not entirely economic, but also moralistic, to condemn the Russian invasion. I think public opinion in the US is largely against the invasion, to the extent that many US consumers are willing to pay more at the pump if they have to. Maybe the administration welcomes this situation as a scapegoat on which they can blame rising energy prices, where before the blame has frequently been placed on Biden's energy policy.

If this is used as a scapegoat for rising energy prices, that's really bad. If the American public believes Russia is to blame, then people are going to want to invade Russia when they suddenly can't afford gas at $10/gallon to get to work anymore. Those kind of prices are going to be ruinous to the American middle class and lower middle class who often is stuck having to drive an hour or more to work, or small businesses that rely a lot on fuel prices.

I don't think the US embargo is a good "moralistic" stance. If this is so important, why hasn't the U.S. embargo'd Saudi Arabia for their atrocities in Yemen? Or China for their atrocities with Uyghurs? What they've done in those cases is much worse than Russia's activities in Ukraine so far.

How do you respond to that?

To me, the atrocities that Russia is committing in Ukraine are morally unacceptable. You seem to find them OK because you do not believe Ukranians have a right to their language, culture, or country. We disagree strongly about that.

So do ethnic Russians have a right to their language and culture. This is not an either/or. The basic fundamental problem here is that Azov has been shelling ethnic Russian areas for a decade now. That's not good, and those kind of things lead to these kind of problems. (Serbia's belligerence in Kosovo led to them being in the exact same situation, and it's a good analogy. Except that time the West invaded instead of Russia, and there's generally a narrative that West=good, Russia=bad.)

[Bootstrap]

Ukrainians believe they have a right to exist, in their country, with their language and culture. They seem to be willing to sacrifice a lot for that.

Ukraine is a country where people live, not merely some pawn in a global chess match.

So do the people in Donetsk, Crimea, and Luhansk.

As kingdom Christians, how exactly are we supposed to solve such conflicts? Do we have to decide who is the "right" side?

That's all you and some others in this thread seem to want to do - explain why you think Putin is right.

In the meantime, real people's lives are being decimated. And you are justifying that.

[temporal1]

“nationalism is bad” seems to have been traded for, “Ukrainian nationalism is the best.”

i’m not sure this is about Ukraine, at all. it’s East meets West - Ukraine is the unfortunate venue.

Particularly concerning is how Ukrainian nationalism is being so widely accepted, neo-Nazis and all. I don't think formal neo-Nazis in the formal military is a particularly good thing, with neo-Nazi.

Overall, I'm not sure I'd agree with Bootstrap that "Americans are willing to accept $6/gal gas because we are taking a strong moral stance". How high should it go? $12? $20? Prices are shooting up and have no end in sight. This is going to crash our economy.

it’s very hard, maybe impossible, for some to admit error. to see they’ve been duped. humility is a sacred gift.
i’m really sorry for Ukraine. all of it.

one day, mainland U.S. may be a venue for outside power struggles. China? once a location is decided, weapons are staged, bad things happen.

i’m of the notion Congress has crashed the U.S. economy. without any outside help, at all.
speaking of not admitting error! start at the top.

[Bootstrap]

Josh, I have no idea what Americans are willing to accept, and I didn't say that. But I don't think gas prices are the most important moral concern here.

You did...

I think that the reasons for a US embargo are not entirely economic, but also moralistic, to condemn the Russian invasion. I think public opinion in the US is largely against the invasion, to the extent that many US consumers are willing to pay more at the pump if they have to. Maybe the administration welcomes this situation as a scapegoat on which they can blame rising energy prices, where before the blame has frequently been placed on Biden's energy policy.

Nope, that wasn't me.

[Josh]

Nope, that wasn't me.

Sorry, Boot, that was mike.

[temporal1]

i’m not sure why this isn’t the central focus for today.

Russia's demands

Vietnam - seems to be thriving today. My daughter has a friend who visited - - - as a tourist.

[Josh]

That's all you and some others in this thread seem to want to do - explain why you think Putin is right.

In the meantime, real people's lives are being decimated. And you are justifying that.

I've been explaining why the West and America are wrong. I'm an American, not a Russian. I think I have a lot more responsibility to deal with my own country's belligerence than another country of whom I am not a citizen and not a resident. Russians can speak on behalf of themselves (and indeed many are and are speaking out against warmongering there as well.)

What concerns me, Boot, is I see nothing but whole-hearted pro-war support here in America: both left and right, Democrats and Republicans. Republicans are speaking very strongly in favour of military action and of sanctions. Sanctions haven't worked against Iran, Venezuela, or other places. Why would they work now?

And I see a lot of people very eager to go to war. The military-industrial complex is getting fired up again. And we're being told it's "patriotic" when middle class Americans can barely afford to get to work, because it's supporting the war effort. This is a repeat of 9/11 once again, and those of us who are a prophetic voice against warfare need to speak against it.

America has absolutely no business getting involved in Eastern European disputes. It's bad enough America is so thickly involved in NATO when Europe should be taking care of its own affairs. America needs to stop having the biggest military in the world. Don't you agree?

[Bootstrap]

I don't think the US embargo is a good "moralistic" stance. If this is so important, why hasn't the U.S. embargo'd Saudi Arabia for their atrocities in Yemen? Or China for their atrocities with Uyghurs? What they've done in those cases is much worse than Russia's activities in Ukraine so far.

How do you respond to that?

You seem to be saying it's wrong to do the right thing now unless the US can prove that they did the right thing in every other instance? This is a common line of argument here, I think it's a "race to the bottom". If a man cheated his last 3 employers, does he have to justify not cheating this one?

Doing the right thing morally is good. Even if you can't prove that you always did.

To me, the atrocities that Russia is committing in Ukraine are morally unacceptable. You seem to find them OK because you do not believe Ukranians have a right to their language, culture, or country. We disagree strongly about that.

So do ethnic Russians have a right to their language and culture. This is not an either/or.

And you believe Putin's military has the jurisdiction to determine when that is appropriate? You really want a military dictatorship to make these decisions for its neighbors? And you believe he will do it in a fair and just way?

Thing is, many polls don't seem to indicate that Luhansk and Donetsk WANT this.

The basic fundamental problem here is that Azov has been shelling ethnic Russian areas for a decade now.

As far as I can tell, that's simply not true. And come on, you know that people make things up to justify military invasions.

The basic fundamental problem here is that a military dictatorship has invaded Ukraine, and they are attacking the civilian populations. And so far, you simply don't seem to be capable of saying that's really terrible. You seem to be interested in telling Ukranians to surrender and explaining why Putin was right to invade.

I think the Kingdom of God stands with refugees and victims of warfare. I don't think it sides with the aggressor.

[Neto]

I don't know now how I got to this article. It may have been a link someone posted here, or a link in another article posted here, or in .... Who knows?

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... ssia-loses

Anyway, I found this article to be interesting and thought provoking, to the extent that the thought comes to me that "the West", and maybe especially the USA, may need to consider that if the Russian Federation is seriously diminished in power or prestige through the outcome of this war, that there may in the future exist the need to defend the Russian Federation from others that would take advantage of their weakened state, creating a possibly even worse situation. (It wouldn't be the first time.)

[Bootstrap]

That's all you and some others in this thread seem to want to do - explain why you think Putin is right.

In the meantime, real people's lives are being decimated. And you are justifying that.

I've been explaining why the West and America are wrong. I'm an American, not a Russian. I think I have a lot more responsibility to deal with my own country's belligerence than another country of whom I am not a citizen and not a resident. Russians can speak on behalf of themselves (and indeed many are and are speaking out against warmongering there as well.)

Ukraine is not America's belligerence. Ukraine is a country where people live and where two million people have become refugees, where cities are under siege and civilian areas are under attack. Ukraine is not a strategic pawn on a chessboard between Russia and America.

The United States did not invade Ukraine. Russia did. Ukraine did not invade Russia.

If you want to avoid taking sides, the way to do that is to avoid justifying the attacks, to grieve and pray and help victims. Justifying the military aggressor's invasion is taking sides. I'm not neutral in this - I don't think you should invade countries, I am opposed to those who do that without extreme justifications. And yes, I have said that plenty about situations where the United States was the aggressor.