Gender confusion

[RZehr]

I raised three kids and nothing is further from the truth. They know exactly who they are.

It is rich, that you from your hetero-normative, stereotypically white, perfect family ivory tower can lecture us all about how harmless transgender grooming is.

I'm not gonna lie, I really didn't think you would defend normalizing puberty blockers. You're way more out in left field on this than I thought you were.

If you actually paid attention to what kids these days are absorbing it is about 99.9% hypersexualized heterosexual messaging. On TV, in the toy aisle, online, in the mall, in advertising, literally everywhere. And maybe 0.1% is in the other direction. If even that. Which is illustrated by the fact that we are talking about 1 page out of perhaps 2000 pages of material in a 19-book American Girl series. For example, the biggest toy manufacturer is Mattel. Why don't you go to their web site. They have nearly 1,000 different dolls and doll sets listed. Take a look through them all and tell us the percentage that are LGBT or not gender-normative. Here you go have fun: https://shop.mattel.com/collections/dolls-dollhouses

Or go to the Disney Channel and tell us what percentage of the characters in their cartoons or live action shows are LGBT versus ordinary feminine/masculine or extreme versions of such like all the Disney Princess shows. I don't know if this link will work but here you go. Here is their kid series page: https://www.disneyplus.com/series/6bda2 ... e2c80aa6fe and here is their kid's movie page: https://www.disneyplus.com/movies/3314d ... 749e264dd0

Or go to the mall and peruse Aeropostale or H&M or any other popular clothing store for teens and tell us what kind of sexuality they are promoting. Trust me, the much bigger problem is steering your teen away from dresses like these https://www.aeropostale.com/floral-scoo ... 49142.html than getting groomed in the mall to be LGBT.

That is the the culture that our kids are actually swimming in.

We can have a conversation about the messaging that our kids are getting in the media, online, in advertising and so forth. And frankly it isn't good. And it is of great concern to a lot of parents. It is a tidal wave of sexualized imagery and content, much of it hypersexualized. But "transgender grooming" it is not. It is very much the opposite. The fact that you have to look so long and hard to even find snippets of material you can label as such pretty much proves the point.

It may be the culture your kids are swimming in, but not mine. I don’t appreciate Disney or the mall clothing brands, for the reasons you cite. The answer is not to shrug and give up, and sigh that we might as well accept it all, LGBTQ included.

Anyway, I don’t think you’d be minimizing the matter if it was something that wasn’t a core value of your favored political tribe. Children books with a side helping of casual say, white supremacy, would probably be enough for you to not gloss over it.

[Ken]

We can have a conversation about the messaging that our kids are getting in the media, online, in advertising and so forth. And frankly it isn't good. And it is of great concern to a lot of parents. It is a tidal wave of sexualized imagery and content, much of it hypersexualized. But "transgender grooming" it is not. It is very much the opposite. The fact that you have to look so long and hard to even find snippets of material you can label as such pretty much proves the point.

Go have some real discussions with those who have detransitioned and ask them their motives to transition in the first place… you may be surprised.

What percentage of transgender people remain happy with their choice? It is hard to find actual statistics but it looks like about 97%. What percentage are unhappy and de-transition? It looks like about 2.5%. Whatever numbers you find, it looks like the vast majority are happy with their decision and remain happy years later. How do those numbers compare to say Amish success rates in retaining their kids? I don't know, you can do a comparison and report back if you want.

As a teacher I see trans kids occasionally. And I personally suspect that most are just going through an experimental phase. Very few of them are actually on hormones. It's mostly just boys with makeup and jewelry or girls with short butchy hair and hoodies. Most of them don't even get into the name changes and pronouns. They are just messing around as kids do. It is actually exceedingly hard to even get appointments for things like prescription hormones and actual trans surgery on kids under 18 is quite difficult to arrange and quite rare.

Honestly this is mostly a first-world issue. Of all the crises facing our youth from abuse, homelessness, chronic disease, obesity, auto accidents, gun violence, unsafe streets, parents lost to COVID, divorce, inaccessible higher education, etc. etc. I find it hard to rank "LGBT Grooming" even in the top 100. Perhaps not even in the top 500. I see hundreds of kids who are struggling with crises for one reason or another. Actual real crises that are caused by factors outside their control. Being involuntarily groomed to be LGBT is not one of them.

You may say I'm in denial or an apologist or whatever. And that's fine. I have a tough skin. But honestly, this current nationwide obsession that conservatives and conservative Christians have with persecuting LGBT kids and their families is frankly pretty unseemly, bigoted, and un-American. Whatever happened to letting people make their own choices and letting parents and their doctors decide what is best for their kids? Rather than wielding the extraordinarily coercive power of the state to punish parents and children for deciding what is best for themselves? It is frankly Medieval.

[nett]

Whatever happened to letting people make their own choices and letting parents and their doctors decide what is best for their kids? Rather than wielding the extraordinarily coercive power of the state to punish parents and children for deciding what is best for themselves? It is frankly Medieval.

You're right, bring on the heroin, meth, and fentanyl.

[Ken]

It is rich, that you from your hetero-normative, stereotypically white, perfect family ivory tower can lecture us all about how harmless transgender grooming is.

I'm not gonna lie, I really didn't think you would defend normalizing puberty blockers. You're way more out in left field on this than I thought you were.

If you actually paid attention to what kids these days are absorbing it is about 99.9% hypersexualized heterosexual messaging. On TV, in the toy aisle, online, in the mall, in advertising, literally everywhere. And maybe 0.1% is in the other direction. If even that. Which is illustrated by the fact that we are talking about 1 page out of perhaps 2000 pages of material in a 19-book American Girl series. For example, the biggest toy manufacturer is Mattel. Why don't you go to their web site. They have nearly 1,000 different dolls and doll sets listed. Take a look through them all and tell us the percentage that are LGBT or not gender-normative. Here you go have fun: https://shop.mattel.com/collections/dolls-dollhouses

Or go to the Disney Channel and tell us what percentage of the characters in their cartoons or live action shows are LGBT versus ordinary feminine/masculine or extreme versions of such like all the Disney Princess shows. I don't know if this link will work but here you go. Here is their kid series page: https://www.disneyplus.com/series/6bda2 ... e2c80aa6fe and here is their kid's movie page: https://www.disneyplus.com/movies/3314d ... 749e264dd0

Or go to the mall and peruse Aeropostale or H&M or any other popular clothing store for teens and tell us what kind of sexuality they are promoting. Trust me, the much bigger problem is steering your teen away from dresses like these https://www.aeropostale.com/floral-scoo ... 49142.html than getting groomed in the mall to be LGBT.

That is the the culture that our kids are actually swimming in.

We can have a conversation about the messaging that our kids are getting in the media, online, in advertising and so forth. And frankly it isn't good. And it is of great concern to a lot of parents. It is a tidal wave of sexualized imagery and content, much of it hypersexualized. But "transgender grooming" it is not. It is very much the opposite. The fact that you have to look so long and hard to even find snippets of material you can label as such pretty much proves the point.

It may be the culture your kids are swimming in, but not mine. I don’t appreciate Disney or the mall clothing brands, for the reasons you cite. The answer is not to shrug and give up, and sigh that we might as well accept it all, LGBTQ included.

Anyway, I don’t think you’d be minimizing the matter if it was something that wasn’t a core value of your favored political tribe. Children books with a side helping of casual say, white supremacy, would probably be enough for you to not gloss over it.

Oh, we limit what are kids buy and watch and limit their phone use. But we don't keep them locked up. They are going to live in the world at some point and so are yours. I'm talking about society generally which is what this larger discussion is about.

[nett]

If you actually paid attention to what kids these days are absorbing it is about 99.9% hypersexualized heterosexual messaging. On TV, in the toy aisle, online, in the mall, in advertising, literally everywhere. And maybe 0.1% is in the other direction. If even that. Which is illustrated by the fact that we are talking about 1 page out of perhaps 2000 pages of material in a 19-book American Girl series. For example, the biggest toy manufacturer is Mattel. Why don't you go to their web site. They have nearly 1,000 different dolls and doll sets listed. Take a look through them all and tell us the percentage that are LGBT or not gender-normative. Here you go have fun: https://shop.mattel.com/collections/dolls-dollhouses

Or go to the Disney Channel and tell us what percentage of the characters in their cartoons or live action shows are LGBT versus ordinary feminine/masculine or extreme versions of such like all the Disney Princess shows. I don't know if this link will work but here you go. Here is their kid series page: https://www.disneyplus.com/series/6bda2 ... e2c80aa6fe and here is their kid's movie page: https://www.disneyplus.com/movies/3314d ... 749e264dd0

Or go to the mall and peruse Aeropostale or H&M or any other popular clothing store for teens and tell us what kind of sexuality they are promoting. Trust me, the much bigger problem is steering your teen away from dresses like these https://www.aeropostale.com/floral-scoo ... 49142.html than getting groomed in the mall to be LGBT.

That is the the culture that our kids are actually swimming in.

We can have a conversation about the messaging that our kids are getting in the media, online, in advertising and so forth. And frankly it isn't good. And it is of great concern to a lot of parents. It is a tidal wave of sexualized imagery and content, much of it hypersexualized. But "transgender grooming" it is not. It is very much the opposite. The fact that you have to look so long and hard to even find snippets of material you can label as such pretty much proves the point.

It may be the culture your kids are swimming in, but not mine. I don’t appreciate Disney or the mall clothing brands, for the reasons you cite. The answer is not to shrug and give up, and sigh that we might as well accept it all, LGBTQ included.

Anyway, I don’t think you’d be minimizing the matter if it was something that wasn’t a core value of your favored political tribe. Children books with a side helping of casual say, white supremacy, would probably be enough for you to not gloss over it.

Oh, we limit what are kids buy and watch and limit their phone use. But we don't keep them locked up. They are going to live in the world at some point and so are yours. I'm talking about society generally which is what this larger discussion is about.

In past threads, you've advocated pretty adamantly that the current liberal state is the best society that has ever existed. But now you're expressing a view that there may in fact be some bad things out there. You absolutely despise the idea that a church would establish communal standards to protect they're voluntary members from the worldly influence, so do tell, who should people look to figure out how to avoid all these bad influences?

Also, what is wrong with hyper sexualized culture in your worldview? Isn't this just giving people what they want, and letting them make their own choices?

[Ken]

Whatever happened to letting people make their own choices and letting parents and their doctors decide what is best for their kids? Rather than wielding the extraordinarily coercive power of the state to punish parents and children for deciding what is best for themselves? It is frankly Medieval.

You're right, bring on the heroin, meth, and fentanyl.

The problem isn't parents giving their kids meth and fentanyl. The problem is that there are kids who's parents are on meth and fentanyl and I promise you that is a 1000-times more dire and real problem than LGBT groomers lurking around the mall to suck your kid into a life of transgenderism.

I have had kids who's parents were meth addicts and who disappeared into prison or just plain abandoned their kids and disappeared. That is a real problem in our society worth discussing and attempting to solve. I'm happy to talk about that all you want. I don't have all the answers but what we are doing today definitely isn't working.

[nett]

What percentage of transgender people remain happy with their choice? It is hard to find actual statistics but it looks like about 97%. What percentage are unhappy and de-transition? It looks like about 2.5%. Whatever numbers you find, it looks like the vast majority are happy with their decision and remain happy years later. How do those numbers compare to say Amish success rates in retaining their kids? I don't know, you can do a comparison and report back if you want.

Suicidality among trans people is astronomically high. Surgical and hormonal interventions are associated with increased suicidality, so I think saying most trans people are happy with their decision is a bit optimistic. In fact, I think a lot of trans seek interventions hoping it will just make everything better, and then find out that even after surgery or hormones, they still don't feel like they belong in their body, except now they have no further options, and their body has been damaged by the intervention they sought.

I find your numbers very questionable. This is pretty much unknown, because once someone seeks to de-transition, they are no longer counted as trans, and are excluded from almost all research surveys.

[nett]

Whatever happened to letting people make their own choices and letting parents and their doctors decide what is best for their kids? Rather than wielding the extraordinarily coercive power of the state to punish parents and children for deciding what is best for themselves? It is frankly Medieval.

You're right, bring on the heroin, meth, and fentanyl.

The problem isn't parents giving their kids meth and fentanyl. The problem is that there are kids who's parents are on meth and fentanyl and I promise you that is a 1000-times more dire and real problem than LGBT groomers lurking around the mall to suck your kid into a life of transgenderism.

I have had kids who's parents were meth addicts and who disappeared into prison or just plain abandoned their kids and disappeared. That is a real problem in our society worth discussing and attempting to solve. I'm happy to talk about that all you want. I don't have all the answers but what we are doing today definitely isn't working.

Chicken and egg problem. Who are you say parents can't give their kids fentanyl, it's just letting them make their own decisions.

[Soloist]

]
What percentage of transgender people remain happy with their choice? It is hard to find actual statistics but it looks like about 97%. What percentage are unhappy and de-transition? It looks like about 2.5%. Whatever numbers you find, it looks like the vast majority are happy with their decision and remain happy years later. How do those numbers compare to say Amish success rates in retaining their kids? I don't know, you can do a comparison and report back if you want.

I addressed this before. The national survey of transgender regret has major issues with how it was done. Most detrans are removed from the data by the screening questions. Also, they are not following these people more then a year or two.

It is actually exceedingly hard to even get appointments for things like prescription hormones and actual trans surgery on kids under 18 is quite difficult to arrange and quite rare.

You are exceedingly well informed for not being trans and those who would have transitioned and regret doing so would disagree with you. Have you ever tried looking for it? It’s a lot easier to get then you think.

You may say I'm in denial or an apologist or whatever. And that's fine. I have a tough skin. But honestly, this current nationwide obsession that conservatives and conservative Christians have with persecuting LGBT kids and their families is frankly pretty unseemly, bigoted, and un-American. Whatever happened to letting people make their own choices and letting parents and their doctors decide what is best for their kids? Rather than wielding the extraordinarily coercive power of the state to punish parents and children for deciding what is best for themselves?

I’m not obsessed or even seeking to change any law.
The laws though are trying to change so that the child can make their own choices regardless of parental desire. You can believe what you want but that is coming quickly.

[Ken]

It may be the culture your kids are swimming in, but not mine. I don’t appreciate Disney or the mall clothing brands, for the reasons you cite. The answer is not to shrug and give up, and sigh that we might as well accept it all, LGBTQ included.

Anyway, I don’t think you’d be minimizing the matter if it was something that wasn’t a core value of your favored political tribe. Children books with a side helping of casual say, white supremacy, would probably be enough for you to not gloss over it.

Oh, we limit what are kids buy and watch and limit their phone use. But we don't keep them locked up. They are going to live in the world at some point and so are yours. I'm talking about society generally which is what this larger discussion is about.

In past threads, you've advocated pretty adamantly that the current liberal state is the best society that has ever existed. But now you're expressing a view that there may in fact be some bad things out there. You absolutely despise the idea that a church would establish communal standards to protect they're voluntary members from the worldly influence, so do tell, who should people look to figure out how to avoid all these bad influences?

Also, what is wrong with hyper sexualized culture in your worldview? Isn't this just giving people what they want, and letting them make their own choices?

The world is a complicated place Nett. You can simultaneously understand that things like teen pregnancy, teen drug use, teen crime, teen dropout rates, and so forth are all trending downwards and that in many ways, kids on average are doing better today than a generation or two ago. While also understanding that there are many severe crises facing our society that demand our attention. At least most intelligent people can hold those two seemingly contradictory ideas in their minds and understand them.

Context is important. We can actually identify all the threats facing our kids and families these days, both internal and external. They are legion. And we can rank them in some sort of order of importance. I tend to believe that all this anti-LGBT hysteria passing through conservative politics is just the latest in the culture wars. 2021 was the year of anti-mask and anti-CRT hysteria. 2022 seems to be the year of anti-trans hysteria. I have no idea what 2023 will bring. Is it good politics? I have no idea but I sort of doubt it. But I expect we will see video of screaming about some new conservative outrage at school board meetings next year once the anti-trans kid thing fades.