Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Soloist]

I think that’s right. Ukraine is never going to accept a deal without security guarantees. Unless things really change, Russia is never going to accept NATO peacekeepers in Ukraine.

I think if you looked at my hypothetical, it included things like that.
That being said… even if Russia propose it I don’t think Ukraine would accept it.

[Ken]

I think that’s right. Ukraine is never going to accept a deal without security guarantees. Unless things really change, Russia is never going to accept NATO peacekeepers in Ukraine.

I think if you looked at my hypothetical, it included things like that.
That being said… even if Russia propose it I don’t think Ukraine would accept it.

Any peace agreement (as opposed to a temporary truce) is going to be hundreds of pages long. And not some 2 or 3 sentences. None of this stuff is simplistic.

[Szdfan]

I think that’s right. Ukraine is never going to accept a deal without security guarantees. Unless things really change, Russia is never going to accept NATO peacekeepers in Ukraine.

I think if you looked at my hypothetical, it included things like that.
That being said… even if Russia propose it I don’t think Ukraine would accept it.

What do you think Ukraine would accept?

[JohnH]

Hypothetically, if Russia offered a neutral zone, asked for acknowledgement of present territory control, allowed for NATO “peace keepers” and a peace treaty but no membership in NATO, will or should Ukraine accept?

There is no sign Russia is seeking an end to the war.

Hypothetically,

[Bootstrap]

Hypothetically, if Russia offered a neutral zone, asked for acknowledgement of present territory control, allowed for NATO “peace keepers” and a peace treaty but no membership in NATO, will or should Ukraine accept?

NATO peacekeepers might help—real outside enforcement would be a big step up from past deals. But would that be enough? What would stop Russia from pressuring or invading again once the world’s attention moves on?

Back in 2014 and 2015, Ukraine signed peace agreements (the Minsk deals) hoping to end the conflict in the east. They made political concessions and held off on retaking certain areas by force. Russia didn’t keep its side of the deal. Then in 2022, it invaded again—full scale—in clear violation of those agreements.

So any new deal would have to offer more than promises. It would need teeth. Because Ukraine’s been burned before.

[Bootstrap]

Hypothetically, if Russia offered a neutral zone, asked for acknowledgement of present territory control, allowed for NATO “peace keepers” and a peace treaty but no membership in NATO, will or should Ukraine accept?

There is no sign Russia is seeking an end to the war.

Hypothetically,

Sure, hypothetically Ukraine could accept. And hypothetically, Russia could keep its word.

Hypothetically, I could adopt a pet bear and teach it not to eat me.

In the real world, though, Ukraine already tried signing peace deals with Russia. Russia agreed—then invaded anyway. So until Russia shows it can be trusted outside a hypothetical universe, Ukraine probably prefers to stick with reality.

[Ken]

Hypothetically, if Russia offered a neutral zone, asked for acknowledgement of present territory control, allowed for NATO “peace keepers” and a peace treaty but no membership in NATO, will or should Ukraine accept?

There is no sign Russia is seeking an end to the war.

Hypothetically,

Well, according to this thread, hypothetically we could offer the Russian army sandwiches and drinks and they will all pack up and go home and the war will be over.

[Szdfan]

Hypothetically, I could adopt a pet bear and teach it not to eat me.

Well, according to this thread, hypothetically we could offer the Russian army sandwiches and drinks and they will all pack up and go home and the war will be over.

I’m not a fan of hypotheticals. I think they’re too clean, too simple, too easy and don’t reflect the complexity of the real world. While the Trolley Problem is interesting, it’s just an intellectual exercise.

I think it’s better to tell stories, which is one reason I shared the story of Sister Vassa, the former Russian Orthodox nun who criticized the Patriarch’s support for the Russian invasion and paid a price for it. That’s messier. That’s a real person having to make choices with consequences in a real situation. I find discussing that more valuable than a hypothetical which won’t happen.

[temporal1]

Well, according to this thread, hypothetically we could offer the Russian army sandwiches and drinks and they will all pack up and go home and the war will be over.

Not hypothetically,
i was touched by this CM sentiment when i first read it on MD, it directly resonated with what i found in scriptures.
And this:

The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
Gilbert K. Chesterton

At the time, this was NOT the most radical expression of (CM) response to worldly conflict shared on forum.
i don’t believe it was contested or mocked.

(i believe) Most new forum members register hoping to find radical, true faith, as in the early church, and/or early Anabaptists.
(i’m reading elsewhere) young people are seeking traditional churches, esp Catholicism and Orthodoxy, seeking depth absent in the many other church choices.

i encourage thinking about it (seeking radical faith).

[Szdfan]

Well, according to this thread, hypothetically we could offer the Russian army sandwiches and drinks and they will all pack up and go home and the war will be over.

Not hypothetically,
i was touched by this CM sentiment when i first read it on MD, it directly resonated with what i found in scriptures.
And this:

The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
Gilbert K. Chesterton

At the time, this was NOT the most radical expression of (CM) response to worldly conflict.

If something has never been actually done…doesn’t it make it hypothetical?