Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 5:29 pm
Can anyone explain Ukraine's rational in sending drones at residential buildings near Moscow? How can this be in Ukraine's favor? This will result in much more infrastructure being bombed in Ukraine.
From the article you linked --
Russia has pummeled Ukraine with missiles, glide bombs and its own drones, killing over 10,000 civilians since the war began in 2022, according to the United Nations.
This is why. I don't think Ukraine has anything to lose. Russia has already been pulverizing Ukraine's infrastructure.
Wouldn't this attack convince ordinary Russians that Ukraine is indeed attempting to overthrow Russia and assert its western values into Russia?
Or it brings the hardship of war to the Russians, possibly undermining support for the war. Until the Ukrainian invasion of Kursk, most Russians continued to live relatively normal lives. The Ukrainians were the ones who bore the majority of the destruction and violence. Attacking civilian Russian targets and disrupting normal life is giving the Russians a piece of their own medicine.
Part of Putin's rationale for power is that he is the one who protects Russia. Attacking targets in Russia undermines that rationale.
I'm not justifying it, but I think that's the rationale.
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 5:29 pm
Can anyone explain Ukraine's rational in sending drones at residential buildings near Moscow? How can this be in Ukraine's favor? This will result in much more infrastructure being bombed in Ukraine.
Wouldn't this attack convince ordinary Russians that Ukraine is indeed attempting to overthrow Russia and assert its western values into Russia?
Has Ukraine now claimed responsibility, and said that the places that were hit were the intended targets? When a drone is 'shot down' over a city, it falls to the ground, inflicting damage where ever the debris lands. The same thing is happening in Ukraine. Maybe the intended target was actually the Kremlin, or some less protected military site.
Years ago (long before 2014) we met some Ukrainian Christians in Columbus. I mentioned to one of the men that my people ('Russian Mennonites") had been offered legal status there, and I know that some people have been given back the land they had owned before it was taken from them by the Soviets, mostly during the Stalin era. Anyway, this guy looked at me like anyone who would consider going back there would be nothing but incredibly stupid. He said the he would never take his family back, BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS CANNOT BE TRUSTED. All of this didn't just start in 2014. There is at least a solid 100 years of Russian attempts to deprive the Ukrainian people of their language, culture, and land. Their lives, even. I'm not justifying war or fighting back, either, and Ukraine isn't the only place in the world where this same thing is being played out.
Neto wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:42 pm
Years ago (long before 2014) we met some Ukrainian Christians in Columbus. I mentioned to one of the men that my people ('Russian Mennonites") had been offered legal status there, and I know that some people have been given back the land they had owned before it was taken from them by the Soviets, mostly during the Stalin era. Anyway, this guy looked at me like anyone who would consider going back there would be nothing but incredibly stupid. He said the he would never take his family back, BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS CANNOT BE TRUSTED. All of this didn't just start in 2014. There is at least a solid 100 years of Russian attempts to deprive the Ukrainian people of their language, culture, and land. Their lives, even. I'm not justifying war or fighting back, either, and Ukraine isn't the only place in the world where this same thing is being played out.
Sounds really strange, because it was mostly the Soviets that pushed the Ukrainian language onto the city population (like in Kiev, Odessa and Donbass region). So nobody deprived the villagers of Ukraine of their dialect. But to be honest the idea to replace Russian language with Ukrainian is as much as stupid as to replace high German with Plautdeutsch or Pennsylvania Dutch as an official language. No one will be able to write a reasonable science or medical book or even an article in those dialects. The same is true about so called the "Ukrainian" language.
In the 1920's-1930's, the Bolsheviks actively promoted the ”localization policy“, which took the form of Ukrainization in the Ukrainian SSR. Symbolically, as part of this policy and with consent of the Soviet authorities, Mikhail Grushevskiy, former chairman of Central Rada, one of the ideologists of Ukrainian nationalism, who at a certain period of time had been supported by Austria-Hungary, was returned to the USSR and was elected member of the Academy of Sciences.
The localization policy undoubtedly played a major role in the development and consolidation of the Ukrainian culture, language and identity. At the same time, under the guise of combating the so-called Russian great-power chauvinism, Ukrainization was often imposed on those who did not see themselves as Ukrainians. This Soviet national policy secured at the state level the provision on three separate Slavic peoples: Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian, instead of the large Russian nation, a triune people comprising Velikorussians, Malorussians and Belorussians http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181
Neto wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:42 pm
Years ago (long before 2014) we met some Ukrainian Christians in Columbus. I mentioned to one of the men that my people ('Russian Mennonites") had been offered legal status there, and I know that some people have been given back the land they had owned before it was taken from them by the Soviets, mostly during the Stalin era. Anyway, this guy looked at me like anyone who would consider going back there would be nothing but incredibly stupid. He said the he would never take his family back, BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS CANNOT BE TRUSTED. All of this didn't just start in 2014. There is at least a solid 100 years of Russian attempts to deprive the Ukrainian people of their language, culture, and land. Their lives, even. I'm not justifying war or fighting back, either, and Ukraine isn't the only place in the world where this same thing is being played out.
Sounds really strange, because it was mostly the Soviets that pushed the Ukrainian language onto the city population (like in Kiev, Odessa and Donbass region). So nobody deprived the villagers of Ukraine of their dialect. But to be honest the idea to replace Russian language with Ukrainian is as much as stupid as to replace high German with Plautdeutsch or Pennsylvania Dutch as an official language. No one will be able to write a reasonable science or medical book or even an article in those dialects. The same is true about so called the "Ukrainian" language.
In the 1920's-1930's, the Bolsheviks actively promoted the ”localization policy“, which took the form of Ukrainization in the Ukrainian SSR. Symbolically, as part of this policy and with consent of the Soviet authorities, Mikhail Grushevskiy, former chairman of Central Rada, one of the ideologists of Ukrainian nationalism, who at a certain period of time had been supported by Austria-Hungary, was returned to the USSR and was elected member of the Academy of Sciences.
The localization policy undoubtedly played a major role in the development and consolidation of the Ukrainian culture, language and identity. At the same time, under the guise of combating the so-called Russian great-power chauvinism, Ukrainization was often imposed on those who did not see themselves as Ukrainians. This Soviet national policy secured at the state level the provision on three separate Slavic peoples: Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian, instead of the large Russian nation, a triune people comprising Velikorussians, Malorussians and Belorussians http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181
High German was not "replaced by Plautdietsch". German was adopted as a written language after the Dutch Mennonites had left their 'home land" (under threat of death). In respect to "Russian Mennonites", High German replaced Dutch (the real Dutch language, not PA "Dutch"). I doubt if Datsch (PA German) replaced High German, either. Datsch is, in my understanding from talking with Germans from Germany, akin to Schweibish, a German dialect or language still spoken in parts of Germany.
In regards to Ukraine, look up the Holodomor. (There were two such events, one in the 1920's that affected mainly people in the rural areas. A later "famine turned genocide" affected the cities more, and that is the one most remembered by the city-dwelling Ukrainians.)
Neto wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:42 pm
Years ago (long before 2014) we met some Ukrainian Christians in Columbus. I mentioned to one of the men that my people ('Russian Mennonites") had been offered legal status there, and I know that some people have been given back the land they had owned before it was taken from them by the Soviets, mostly during the Stalin era. Anyway, this guy looked at me like anyone who would consider going back there would be nothing but incredibly stupid. He said the he would never take his family back, BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS CANNOT BE TRUSTED. All of this didn't just start in 2014. There is at least a solid 100 years of Russian attempts to deprive the Ukrainian people of their language, culture, and land. Their lives, even. I'm not justifying war or fighting back, either, and Ukraine isn't the only place in the world where this same thing is being played out.
Sounds really strange, because it was mostly the Soviets that pushed the Ukrainian language onto the city population (like in Kiev, Odessa and Donbass region). So nobody deprived the villagers of Ukraine of their dialect. But to be honest the idea to replace Russian language with Ukrainian is as much as stupid as to replace high German with Plautdeutsch or Pennsylvania Dutch as an official language. No one will be able to write a reasonable science or medical book or even an article in those dialects. The same is true about so called the "Ukrainian" language.
In the 1920's-1930's, the Bolsheviks actively promoted the ”localization policy“, which took the form of Ukrainization in the Ukrainian SSR. Symbolically, as part of this policy and with consent of the Soviet authorities, Mikhail Grushevskiy, former chairman of Central Rada, one of the ideologists of Ukrainian nationalism, who at a certain period of time had been supported by Austria-Hungary, was returned to the USSR and was elected member of the Academy of Sciences.
The localization policy undoubtedly played a major role in the development and consolidation of the Ukrainian culture, language and identity. At the same time, under the guise of combating the so-called Russian great-power chauvinism, Ukrainization was often imposed on those who did not see themselves as Ukrainians. This Soviet national policy secured at the state level the provision on three separate Slavic peoples: Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian, instead of the large Russian nation, a triune people comprising Velikorussians, Malorussians and Belorussians http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181
High German was not "replaced by Plautdietsch". German was adopted as a written language after the Dutch Mennonites had left their 'home land" (under threat of death). In respect to "Russian Mennonites", High German replaced Dutch (the real Dutch language, not PA "Dutch"). I doubt if Datsch (PA German) replaced High German, either. Datsch is, in my understanding from talking with Germans from Germany, akin to Schweibish, a German dialect or language still spoken in parts of Germany.
In regards to Ukraine, look up the Holodomor. (There were two such events, one in the 1920's that affected mainly people in the rural areas. A later "famine turned genocide" affected the cities more, and that is the one most remembered by the city-dwelling Ukrainians.)
1. Ukrainian is not a regional dialect of Russian. It is part of the East Slavic family of languages with similarities to Russian, but it also has similarities to Polish. The relationship between Ukrainian and Russian is analogous to the relationship between Portuguese and Spanish. To say that it's impossible to write a reasonable medical or scientific book in Ukrainian is untrue. Here are some of the books of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine published in the Ukrainian language.
2. While Putin's 2021 essay, "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians" is an accurate reflection of Putin's thinking and justification for the invasion, it's not an accurate history with a number of dubious claims. I'm a bit shocked that it's being cited here as some sort of authority.
Szdfan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:38 pm
The relationship between Ukrainian . To say that it's impossible to write a reasonable medical or scientific book in Ukrainian is untrue. Here are some of the books of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine published in the Ukrainian language.
The Ukrainian medical dictionary published several years ago is more a parody of its kind and not a serious thing. Yes, you can subsidize publishing books in an artificially generated "medical Ukrainian" or even Theolgical language but nobody will be reading it. I can clearly say from my personal experience in Christian book sales and working with the publishets in those two languages both in the North America and Ukraine for two decades. I also personally know some ultra-nationalistic Ukrainian speaking Christians from the Western Ukraine that moved to the North America but the funniest thing about them that they are using Russian Bibles for their devotions and services.
temporal1 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:44 pm
Jan 2023: NO / Biden: U.S. will not send F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine / 4min
May 2023: YES / Biden backs plan to provide F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine / -2min
Biden changed his mind. Presidents do that.
No kidding. This was a quick turnaround. Counting on poor memories.
In the second video, he (once again, “sternly” promises) Ukraine will NOT use these jets to cross into Russia.
O.yeah. Count on it.
Super-stoked to read this. A parting gift for the incoming administration?
temporal1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 7:28 am
A reminder of some earlier discussions in this thread:
Jeffrey Sachs - How the US Provoked the Invasion of Ukraine / -11min
I think it's accurate that NATO expansion is part of the reason why Russia invaded Ukraine, but it's not the full story. A deep part of the Russian psyche is the desire to have a buffer zone with the West, which was one of the major reasons why Stalin demanded the Eastern Bloc after World War II. Considering that Russia has been invaded twice (Napoleon and Hitler), this is not an unreasonable position.
There are a couple of problems with this rationale --
1) There is no evidence, no record that this promise was ever made. Even if this promise was made, it never was part of policy.
2) It assumes that smaller countries in Eastern Europe have no agency and are unable to decide for themselves their future. Why do most of the countries in the former USSR/Russian sphere of influence don't want to be in the Russian sphere of influence? Why doesn't Moldovia (which is thought to be next if Russia prevails in Ukraine recently voted in a referendum to enjoy the EU) want to be in the Russian sphere? Why doesn't Poland or the Czech Republic? Why don't the Baltics? Don't these countries get to decide for themselves who they ally with?
3) Sachs ignores the various imperial statements Putin has made, such as his infamous article, ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“ that Russians and Ukrainians were "one" people. We know from refugee testimony that Russia is engaged in a brutal suppression of Ukrainian identity in the occupied territories. Regardless of whatever legitimate security concerns Russia has, the invasion is also part of the long history of Russian imperialism.
One of the things that we know about empire is that "security concerns" are frequently the pretext for military invasion. The US does it, and so does Russia.
1 x
"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."
I think the better conclusion is that the Ukraine invasion has demonstrated why NATO expansion was necessary and the correct decision for all those countries that willingly chose to join NATO.
Russia hasn't invaded any country that has chosen to join NATO. Not Poland, not Lithuania, not Romania, not Finland. It has chosen to invade the one country that didn't join NATO, Ukraine.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
